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Discussion Groups / British English / November 2005How do you address a female surgeon?
British surgeons are notorious for insisting on being called "Mr", whilst ordinary medics insist on being called "Dr". This despite the standard medical degree being MB BS (and variants), and the MD being a 'higher doctorate' and only awarded to advanced and distinguished medics - such as consultant surgeons... So most of those calling themselves "Dr" don't have a doctorate, and the most important of those who do call themselves "Mr"... But what about female surgeons?  SignatureJohn Briggs > British surgeons are notorious for insisting on being called "Mr", > whilst ordinary medics insist on being called "Dr". This despite the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > But what about female surgeons? Legend has it (probably apocryphally) that there were once a maried couple who were both in the medical profession and who wished to be known as "Mr & Dr <surname>", "Mr" being the wife, who was a surgeon. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II - Felis Catus III real soon now! Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. > > British surgeons are notorious for insisting on being called "Mr", > > whilst ordinary medics insist on being called "Dr". This despite the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > who were both in the medical profession and who wished to be known as "Mr & > Dr <surname>", "Mr" being the wife, who was a surgeon. That seems a bit odd. Was she a 19th C. surgeon? Got any attributions, even fiction, like from Harley St.? Or better 221B Baker St.? SignatureBest, Erick Andrews delete bogus to reply >> Legend has it (probably apocryphally) that there were once a maried >> couple who were both in the medical profession and who wished to be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > attributions, even fiction, like from Harley St.? Or better 221B > Baker St.? All I can say is that somebody (I can't remeber who or where) told me that they knew the people concerned, so we're in classic Urban Myth territory. Definitely not 19th C, allegedly current-day. But I think I can understand it - some people do that sort of thing out of sheer idiosycracy, like a couple of (very real) friends of mine who, just before they married, told everyone that she would keep her maiden name, but he would answer to either surname. In practice most of us simply did whatever the spoken equivalent is of hyphenating the two surnames. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II - Felis Catus III real soon now! Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. > >> Legend has it (probably apocryphally) that there were once a maried > >> couple who were both in the medical profession and who wished to be [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > surname. In practice most of us simply did whatever the spoken equivalent > is of hyphenating the two surnames. Your explanation is interesting -- not that I haven't heard of idiosyncratic folks before, but rather less these days. At the risk of being slightly OT, I wonder if there is a UK equivalent to http://www.docboard.org ?? ...which is an attempt to vet the practitioners. -- > Mike Stevens > narrowboat Felis Catus II - Felis Catus III real soon now! > Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk > > No man is an island. So is Man. SignatureBest, Erick Andrews delete bogus to reply Very carefully! > British surgeons are notorious for insisting on being called "Mr", whilst > ordinary medics insist on being called "Dr". My understanding (my wife is a nurse), is that this is a convention rather than any kind of insistence. Surgeons earn the title "Mr" when they reach consultant level. Physicians (medical) are always "Dr". > But what about female surgeons? I believe female consultant surgeons use "Miss" or "Mrs" as appropriate. They could probably also choose "Ms" if they were so inclined. Cheers Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org > British surgeons are notorious for insisting on being called "Mr", whilst > ordinary medics insist on being called "Dr". This apparently has its origins in the fact that originally in England (and seemingly also in Scotland and Ireland) medical doctors had a theoretical education at a university level institution whereas surgeons 8and dental surgeons) went through an apprenticeship. Teh university-trained doctors were very hot on their academic status and refused to recognise surgeons as anything other than skilled craftsmen and denied them the honorary title "doctor", which normally goes to a medical practitioner,even if his degree is a bachelors or a masters. When at a later stage becoming a surgeon involved an academic education the English medical fraternity offered to recognise that surgeons were their equals and offered to confer them the honarary title "doctor" similar to other doctors of medicine the College of Surgeons rejected this belated attempt to recognise that they were also members of the medical fraternity and not simply skilled craftsmen and refused the honorific title "doctor" as a sign of what we might call reverse snobbery. Basically they said if we weren't good enough for you before we are quite happy to distinguish ourselves from you still. An eminent surgeon in a hospital I worked in many years ago told me this to explain why British surgeons got annoyed when the were addressed as "doctor". Regards, Einde O'Callaghan P.S. I believe the answer to the question posed in the original post is that at least younger female surgeons in Britain prefer to be addressed to as "Ms". At 15:37:07 on Thu, 17 Nov 2005, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote in <3u3iqaFv93n7U1@individual.net>: >This apparently has its origins in the fact that originally in England >(and seemingly also in Scotland and Ireland) medical doctors had a >theoretical education at a university level institution whereas >surgeons 8and dental surgeons) went through an apprenticeship. Teh >university-trained doctors were very hot on their academic status and >refused to recognise surgeons as anything other than skilled craftsmen Indeed, surgeons evolved from barbers; the barber would be the chap you would go to either for a shave (hence the name) or for a bit of blood-letting (a haircut was rather less probable in those days), and the spirally-striped traditional barber's pole represents an arm with blood running down it from this procedure. And Sweeney Todd was not the only surgeon-butcher! SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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