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Discussion Groups / British English / December 2005the.....sea.....Caspean sea....lake?
The Caspean Sea. However, my student asked me a funny question. This sea is a lake, so shouldn't it be "Caspean SEA" as we do not write THE in front of lakes? Pawel Poland > The Caspean Sea. However, my student asked me a funny question. This sea is > a lake, so shouldn't it be "Caspean SEA" as we do not write THE in front of > lakes? But it's called the Caspian Sea, just like the Baltic Sea or the Bering Sea. Einde O'Callaghan >> The Caspean Sea. However, my student asked me a funny question. This sea >> is a lake, so shouldn't it be "Caspean SEA" as we do not write THE in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Einde O'Callaghan After a short discussion students on their own reached that conclusion. Fortunatelly, they did. Pawel Poland > >> The Caspean Sea. However, my student asked me a funny question. This sea > >> is a lake, so shouldn't it be "Caspean SEA" as we do not write THE in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > After a short discussion students on their own reached that conclusion. > Fortunatelly, they did. Near Stoke-on-Trent, where I grew up, there is a small town called Meir, which is essentially the same word as "mere" meaning lake. Locally it is usually referred to as "The Meir" although you don't see the "The" on signposts. Rules concerning names are rarely hard and fast. Note the spelling of Caspian. > Near Stoke-on-Trent, where I grew up, there is a small town called > Meir And Meir Heath nearby, which always brought Golda's Green to mind. Paul Burke > Near Stoke-on-Trent, where I grew up, there is a small town called > Meir, which is essentially the same word as "mere" meaning lake. > Locally it is usually referred to as "The Meir" although you don't see > the "The" on signposts. Rules concerning names are rarely hard and > fast. On the Staffs and Worcs Canal there is a flight on three locks (which are among my favourite locks on the UK canal system) which are sometimes known as "Bratch Locks" (which is the usual form for such names) but sometimes referred to as "The Bratch". I've never discoverd why. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II - Felis Catus III real soon now! Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. > On the Staffs and Worcs Canal there is a flight on three locks (which are > among my favourite locks on the UK canal system) which are sometimes known > as "Bratch Locks" (which is the usual form for such names) but sometimes > referred to as "The Bratch". I've never discoverd why. This is probably the usage among canal users, to distinguish that particular set of locks. However, locals may well refer to them as "The Locks", just as "Cannock Chase" is known as "The Chase" to locals. >Near Stoke-on-Trent, where I grew up, there is a small town called >Meir, which is essentially the same word as "mere" meaning lake. >Locally it is usually referred to as "The Meir" although you don't see >the "The" on signposts. Rules concerning names are rarely hard and >fast. Lye near Stourbridge was called "The Lye" by locals. I don't know the origin.  SignaturePhil C. In English, one refers to "The Ukraine". Historically, its name had been Rus, south of Belarus. I suspect Rus was Semitic RoSH = head and Ukraina was a loan-translation to Greek kranion (Latin/English cranium)... and not Slavic u kraina = to/at the border. The narrow neck of land between the Black Sea (formerly Pontus Euxinus) and the Caspian Sea is Georgia, probably from Semitic GaRGeret = throat. Both of these seas are "shoulders". Euxinus was the right shoulder, from aleph-tzadi-yod-lamed = axle, shoulder (when the aleph had a CHS-sound), and Caspian was the left shoulder from kaf-saf-peh = shoulder. In other words, these names are parts of a Phoenician male body-part map of the area. The body is probably that of Hermes (perhaps from kHoR = hole + MoSnaim = waist, that is a navel) whose navel (Sanskrit nabhila) is reversed at LeBaNon. He lived atop Mt. Hermon (now on the Israeli-Syrian cease-fire line) before he moved to Mt. Olympus (compare Greek omphalos = navel). His right (Semitic Y'MiN) foot is at YeMeN. His girlfriend Aphrodite gave her name to Africa. Her left (Semitic S'MoL) leg is at Somalia. These bodies are literally connected at Sinai, a part of her body that contains a part of his. To see charts of their body-part & place name equivalents, join the BPMaps discussion group and examine the Hermes and Aphrodite databases at the BPMaps website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/ Best regards, Israel "izzy" Cohen BPMaps moderator > In English, one refers to "The Ukraine". Historically, its name had > been Rus, south of Belarus. I suspect Rus was Semitic .... Why does all this remind me of that sketch in "Goodness Gracious Me"? Paul Burke > In English, one refers to "The Ukraine". We refer to "Argentina", but Argentines (I think they prefer that to "Argentinians") prefer "The Argentine". SignatureJohn Briggs > > In English, one refers to "The Ukraine". > We refer to "Argentina", but Argentines (I think they prefer that to > "Argentinians") prefer "The Argentine". I suspect that would be from the Semitic aR(SoL) + GeNi(TaLS) + iN, probably from the Phonyseeun male body-part map of Gondwanaland. SignatureDavid - grough atcost btinternet fullstop com www grough btinternet co uk/ (where'd me dots go to?) > > > In English, one refers to "The Ukraine". > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > David - grough atcost btinternet fullstop com > www grough btinternet co uk/ (where'd me dots go to?) Ha! You're funny, David. BTW, it is incorrect to call it "The Ukraine." Ivan >>>>In English, one refers to "The Ukraine". >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > BTW, it is incorrect to call it "The Ukraine." I believe the official English name of the country is simply "Ukraine". See, for example, the Website of the Embassy of Ukraine in London at http://www.ukremb.org.uk/ Regards, Einde O'Callaghan A Google search of English language websites produces about 113,000,000 hits for "Ukraine" and only 2% of that number for the phrase "the Ukraine". It seems obvious that modern usage strongly favors dropping the "the". Wikipedia has two paragraphs devoted to "Ukraine or the Ukraine" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine The country is often referred to in English with the definite article, as the Ukraine. This usage is now deprecated by many media organizations (compare "the Lebanon" and "the Sudan") and partly because of the implication that Ukraine is merely a region rather than an independent state. There was, however, no change in Ukrainian or Russian usage with Ukraine's independence, as there are no articles, definite or indefinite, in either language. However there is a parallel concerning the usage of the preposition na or v with Ukraine, both in Ukrainian and in Russian. Traditional usage is na Ukrayini (loosely, "at Ukraine"), but recently Ukrainian authorities have been using v Ukrayini ("in Ukraine"), as this preposition is used with most other country names. While in Ukrainian the newly introduced usage of v Ukrayini took hold, the usage in Russian varies. Russian language media from within Ukraine are increasingly using this form. However, the media in Russia mostly uses traditional na Ukraine, maintaining that it remains a proper usage and questioning the authority of the Ukrainian government over the Russian language. (See also Kiev or Kyiv for a similar debate). ciao, izzy > A Google search of English language websites produces about 113,000,000 > hits for "Ukraine" and only 2% of that number for the phrase "the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > ciao, > izzy My wife is from there and she says "v Ukraine." Ivan Argentina is, of course, from Latin argentum = silver, but Brazil may indeed be from Phoenician BaRZeL = iron. The Phoenicians obtained tin from Cornwall, England and probably circumnavigated Africa, so they could have reached Brazil in their Tarshish ships (which were larger than those used by Columbus). Others think that Brazil is named after "Brazil wood" that was later imported from Brazil for making musical instruments. Israel "izzy" Cohen > Argentina is, of course, from Latin argentum = silver, but Brazil may > indeed be from Phoenician BaRZeL = iron. The Phoenicians obtained tin [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Brazil wood" that was later imported from Brazil for making musical > instruments. > Israel "izzy" Cohen Funny, I thought it was named after the nuts. SignatureDavid - grough atcost btinternet fullstop com www grough btinternet co uk/ (where'd me dots go to?) > > Argentina is, of course, from Latin argentum = silver, but Brazil may > > indeed be from Phoenician BaRZeL = iron. The Phoenicians obtained tin [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Funny, I thought it was named after the nuts. What does Brazil produce more of than any other nation? | | | V Brazilians! It's an old Bazooka Joe joke. > > > Argentina is, of course, from Latin argentum = silver, but Brazil may > > > indeed be from Phoenician BaRZeL = iron. The Phoenicians obtained tin [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > It's an old Bazooka Joe joke. Donald Rumsfeld is giving President George W Bush his daily briefing on the war in Iraq. He concludes by saying: "Yesterday, three Brazilian soldiers were killed." "OH NO!" the President exclaims. "That's terrible!" His staff sits stunned at this display of emotion, nervously watching as the Commander-in-Chief sits, head in hands. Finally, the President looks up with a puzzled look on his face, and asks: "Exactly how many is a brazillion?" > The Phoenicians obtained tin > from Cornwall, England and probably circumnavigated Africa, so they > could have reached Brazil Non sequitur. According to Herodotus they sailed round Africa by coastal hops, just as they may have sailed to England. An Atlantic crissing is an utterly different prospect, and even mediaeval Mediterranean gelleys were not up to the job. Anyway, it wasn't called Brazil until westerners got there. Paul Burke > > The Phoenicians obtained tin from Cornwall, England and probably > > circumnavigated Africa, so they could have reached Brazil > Non sequitur. According to Herodotus they sailed round Africa by > coastal hops, just as they may have sailed to England. An Atlantic > crissing is an utterly different prospect, and even mediaeval > Mediterranean gelleys were not up to the job. > Anyway, it wasn't called Brazil until westerners got there. Why so named? Anyone? Any better explanation than the Celtic mythical island, Hy Brasil? SignatureDavid - grough atcost btinternet fullstop com www grough btinternet co uk/ (where'd me dots go to?) >>Anyway, it wasn't called Brazil until westerners got there. > Why so named? Anyone? Any better explanation than the Celtic mythical > island, Hy Brasil? From dye wood (remember logwood chips in chemistry sets, or aren't you that old?). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilwood Paul Burke > >>Anyway, it wasn't called Brazil until westerners got there. > > Why so named? Anyone? Any better explanation than the Celtic > > mythical island, Hy Brasil? > From dye wood (remember logwood chips in chemistry sets, or aren't > you that old?). Can't remember; could be I'm too old! > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilwood Fascinating, though, how many places have several good and intriguing sounding candidates as source of their names, but when you get down to it, it's nought but the commonplace trade description. SignatureDavid - grough atcost btinternet fullstop com www grough btinternet co uk/ (where'd me dots go to?) >>In English, one refers to "The Ukraine". > > We refer to "Argentina", but Argentines (I think they prefer that to > "Argentinians") prefer "The Argentine". On the Website of the London Embassy of the Argentine Republic they refer to the country as Argentina on the English language pages I've looked at. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >>> In English, one refers to "The Ukraine". >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > refer to the country as Argentina on the English language pages I've > looked at. They are being diplomatic :-) SignatureJohn Briggs >> We refer to "Argentina", but Argentines (I think they prefer that to >> "Argentinians") prefer "The Argentine". > > On the Website of the London Embassy of the Argentine Republic they > refer to the country as Argentina on the English language pages I've > looked at. When I learnt geography at school in the 1950s (in the UK), we knew it as "The Argentine". I'd always assumed that the form "Argentina" was the hispanic form and became common here as a result of the Lloyd Webber song. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II - Felis Catus III real soon now! Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. In message <1134666970.969735.172000@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, at 09:16:11 on Thu, 15 Dec 2005, izzy <cohen.izzy@gmail.com> wibbled >In English, one refers to "The Ukraine". Capitalisation of 'the' (erroneously) came later for English and I rather suspect that the 'the' only appeared as a comfort factor for English speakers as "I am going to Ukraine" sits a bit oddly. >Historically, its name had been Rus, south of Belarus. I don't agree it was called Rus because it was south of Belarus. The Russian Primary Chronicle has this to say: [quote] The four tribes who had been forced to pay tribute to the Varangians - Chuds, Slavs, Merians, and Krivichs drove the Varangians back beyond the sea, refused to pay them further tribute, and set out to govern themselves. But there was no law among them, and tribe rose against tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they began to war one against the other. They said to themselves, "Let us seek a prince who may rule over us, and judge us according to custom. Thus they went overseas to the Varangians, to the Rus. These particular Varangians were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes, and others Normans and Angles, and still others Gotlanders, for they were thus named. The Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichs and the Ves then said to the Rus, "Our land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. Come reign as princes, rule over us". Three brothers, with their kinfolk, were selected. They brought with them all the Rus and migrated. [/quote] Novgorod is nowhere near Ukraine, being NW of Moscow. To save you looking them up, Izborsk is near the Latvian border, W of Moscow and Beloozero was /not/ the old name for Belarus but Belozerk in Russia. Whilst the Rus did reach Kyiv and indeed hold fort there for a time and descend the Dnipr, most of Ukraine at the time/various times was divided between a variety of other powers: Poland, Lithuania, Austria, Romania and the Ottoman Empire mainly and a large Slavic population. I agree that indeed parts of what are now Ukraine where included in the expansion of Rus(sian) Land by name, it certainly wasn't due to it being south of Belarus. >I suspect Rus was Semitic RoSH = head Far more likely directly derived from the Finnish word for Sweden, Rotsi, later Ruotsi, which in turn comes from Old Swedish rother, a word associated with rowing or ships, so that rothskarlar meant "rowers" or "seamen" as the "Varangians" had come from Scandinavia /or/ from the Norse root roðr - to row. >and Ukraina was a loan-translation to Greek kranion (Latin/English >cranium)... and not Slavic u kraina = to/at the border. Just as unlikely. Of note is the fact that when the Ukrayina name was revived, it had previously appeared from maps of Kyiv and surrounding area from the sixteenth century and the root can be attested back to the 12th century as 'borderlands' You'll no doubt find a 16th century map of Kyiv to be instructive. This looks to be the best SignaturePedt Helpful words 04: Formicate (v) To swarm like ants. CCTV staff at rush hour might want to say "Do you know that the passengers are formicating all over the station platforms." In message <ovcdSpvSy8pDFw57@iwannabe.spamless.org.uk>, at 09:19:14 on Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Pedt <"\"@ @\""@user-unknown.mx2.org.uk> wibbled >them all the Rus and migrated. >[/quote] > >Novgorod is nowhere near Ukraine, being NW of Moscow. To save you >looking them up, Izborsk is near the Latvian border, W of Moscow and >Beloozero was /not/ the old name for Belarus but Belozerk in Russia. Oops, sorry if anyone was wondering where I dredged the places up from. I snipped too much of the quote :-( It went on: ---- The oldest, Rurik, located himself in Novgorod; the second, Sinaeus, in Beloozero; and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. On account of these Varangians, the district of Novgorod became known as Russian (Rus) land. ---- SignaturePedt Helpful words 04: Formicate (v) To swarm like ants. CCTV staff at rush hour might want to say "Do you know that the passengers are formicating all over the station platforms." >In message <1134666970.969735.172000@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, at >09:16:11 on Thu, 15 Dec 2005, izzy <cohen.izzy@gmail.com> wibbled [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >the 12th century as 'borderlands' You'll no doubt find a 16th century >map of Kyiv to be instructive. This looks to be the best When I was in Sweden (so this may be biased) I was told that Rus comes from the part of the Swedish coast north of Stockholm called Roslagen, whence came some of the early settlers. Roslagen is so-called because Ros means rose or pink, and the coastline is made largely of pink granite, so it is a pink coast. Simon SignatureSimon Rayner |
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