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X-mas Customs

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Pawe³ Piotr Stawski - 19 Dec 2005 23:19 GMT
I heard and learnt as well that you British are not really pious any more.
Would you agree? Tell me more about it. It is a piece of knowledge I cannot
just find. It must be told by you.
If it touches your personal feelings, accept my appologies. However, here
you should be able to treat it as a secular issue.

Regards,
Pawel
Giles Todd - 20 Dec 2005 00:41 GMT
> I heard and learnt as well that you British are not really pious any more.

All of us are not pious any more.  But then, it is unlikely that all
of us ever were.

> Would you agree? Tell me more about it. It is a piece of knowledge I cannot
> just find. It must be told by you.

I just did.  You have been told.  Be told.

> If it touches your personal feelings, accept my appologies. However, here
> you should be able to treat it as a secular issue.

Indeed it is.  It comes round and round over and over again, just like
the centuries and your incessant context-free questions.

Giles
Paul Burke - 20 Dec 2005 08:48 GMT
> I heard and learnt as well that you British are not really pious any more.
> Would you agree?

No, it's the Poles who are raving religious nutters. In Britain, the
Church of England has exactly the right balance, in that you don't
actually have to believe anything to be a member. Or go to church, ever,
though some people like to take the children along as part of an
education in niceness.

Churches are useful places for christenings, weddings and funerals, and
God and Jesus (though seldom Mary) will be freely invoked, even though
the bridegroom being buried probably never thought about such things in
his life. People like to remember a few resonant hymns for such
occasions, though they need more practice singing them, and have to
mumble the words after the first verse or two, even with the printed
sheet in front of them.

Most churches don't even have a full time vicar any more, just a team
who call in now and then to check that the church is still there, more
like Securicor night watchmen than shepherds. This has broken the age-
old symbiosis between vicar and choirboys, and the breach is made wider
by the fact that many of the team are in fact vicarenes.

Of course, the bishops still get their seats in the Lords, and the
Archbishop is wheeled out to comment on anything that may be considered
vaguely relevant, like abortion of homosexual traffic wardens, or to
agree with what the Chief Rabbi and the head of the Muslim Council have
just told the interviewer.

Of course, some people are devout, but if they get too devout, the
government will pass laws to shut down their mosques.

Paul Burke
John Briggs - 20 Dec 2005 13:22 GMT
> Most churches don't even have a full time vicar any more, just a team
> who call in now and then to check that the church is still there, more
> like Securicor night watchmen than shepherds. This has broken the age-
> old symbiosis between vicar and choirboys, and the breach is made
> wider by the fact that many of the team are in fact vicarenes.

Shouldn't that be "vicaresses"?  In any case, surely some of them are
rectrixes (rectrices)?  I don't know if one has made it to Archdeaconess
yet...  Can you say deanene?

(Molly could dust off the Premonstratensian Canonesses joke...)
Signature

John Briggs

Phil C. - 20 Dec 2005 13:36 GMT
>> Most churches don't even have a full time vicar any more, just a team
>> who call in now and then to check that the church is still there, more
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>rectrixes (rectrices)?  I don't know if one has made it to Archdeaconess
>yet...  Can you say deanene?

I'm looking forward to the first Popette. Or should it be Popesicle?
Signature

Phil C.

Molly Mockford - 20 Dec 2005 19:42 GMT
At 13:36:52 on Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net>
wrote in <hr1gq1d5hqggecbcmnu5gsme6ppo2ssbts@4ax.com>:

>>> Most churches don't even have a full time vicar any more, just a team
>>> who call in now and then to check that the church is still there, more
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>I'm looking forward to the first Popette. Or should it be Popesicle?

Since Pope actually means father, I suspect the female version will have
to be Mama.  (Are high Anglican vicaresses called Father, or Mother, or
what, I wonder?)
Signature

Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

John of Aix - 21 Dec 2005 19:41 GMT
> At 13:36:52 on Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net>
> wrote in hr1gq1d5hqggecbcmnu5gsme6ppo2ssbts@4ax.com:

>> I'm looking forward to the first Popette. Or should it be Popesicle?
>
> Since Pope actually means father, I suspect the female version will
> have to be Mama.  (Are high Anglican vicaresses called Father, or
> Mother, or what, I wonder?)

I think we avoid the quesion by calling them all 'reverend'
Young Sociolinguist - 21 Dec 2005 15:17 GMT
>No, it's the Poles who are raving religious nutters. In Britain, the
>Church of England has exactly the right balance, in that you don't
>actually have to believe anything to be a member. Or go to church, ever,
>though some people like to take the children along as part of an
>education in niceness.

You seem to miscomprehend some issues, but I am not a person who would
try to convert you by all means. As to the Polish nation, I bet you've
never been to my country and your views on the matter are based on
stereotypes. Just don't reply with more irony, for I don't want to make
enemies here. I like Catholicism and other churches (including C of E)
alike, though I belong only to the former and could never change my
beliefs.
As you can see, discussing religious matters on the web may upset
freaks like me and is best to be avoided.
Thanks for rekindling my patriotism, though (which is slightly crooked
due to anglophilia :-)
Dave Fawthrop - 21 Dec 2005 16:22 GMT
| >No, it's the Poles who are raving religious nutters. In Britain, the
| >Church of England has exactly the right balance, in that you don't
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
| Thanks for rekindling my patriotism, though (which is slightly crooked
| due to anglophilia :-)

Now wasn't it some other Pole who started a thread about Xmas?
And Christmas isn't a religious feast?
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Pawel Piotr Stawski - 21 Dec 2005 23:42 GMT
On 21 Dec 2005 07:17:35 -0800, "Young Sociolinguist"
<spooky.fm@interia.pl> wrote:

| Paul Burke wrote:
| >No, it's the Poles who are raving religious nutters. In Britain, the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
| Thanks for rekindling my patriotism, though (which is slightly crooked
| due to anglophilia :-)

Now wasn't it some other Pole who started a thread about Xmas?

yeah, it was me. and your knowledge is, and it was emphesised here, based on
stereotypes.
Pawel

And Christmas isn't a religious feast?
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Dave Fawthrop - 22 Dec 2005 07:29 GMT
| On 21 Dec 2005 07:17:35 -0800, "Young Sociolinguist"
| <spooky.fm@interia.pl> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
|
| And Christmas isn't a religious feast?

Oops your quote marks are broken.

I didn't say:
| yeah, it was me. and your knowledge is, and it was emphesised here, based on
| stereotypes.

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John of Aix - 21 Dec 2005 19:43 GMT
> I like Catholicism and other churches (including C
> of E) alike, though I belong only to the former and could never
> change my beliefs.

While I don't want to knock your beliefs, such a statement shows a
rather closed mind don't you think? You probably won't change them but
the possibility should always be there and accepted if evidence or
experience points you in that direction
Giles Todd - 21 Dec 2005 23:31 GMT
> > I like Catholicism and other churches (including C
> > of E) alike, though I belong only to the former and could never
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the possibility should always be there and accepted if evidence or
> experience points you in that direction

Evidence-based faith?  Wow!  That'll upset certain Shermans.

Giles
Dave Fawthrop - 22 Dec 2005 07:31 GMT
| > > I like Catholicism and other churches (including C
| > > of E) alike, though I belong only to the former and could never
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
|
| Evidence-based faith?  Wow!  That'll upset certain Shermans.

There is plenty of evidence that Science is true, but is it a faith?
;-)
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Giles Todd - 23 Dec 2005 01:55 GMT
> There is plenty of evidence that Science is true, but is it a faith?

You can test a scientific theory and see whether it passes the test or
fails it.  Faith is untestable and its proponents take pride in that
fact.

Whether either approach leads to truth is a question still to be
answered to the satisfaction of parties on either side of the
argument, but science seems to work better when put to the test.
Which, of course, begs the question and will therefore quite
reasonably be dismissed by those in favour of faith.

For what it is worth, my money (literally) is on science.

To answer your specific question, I would say "no".  Science is a
method of finding out a little more than you previously knew.  Faith
is a method of accepting instruction.

Giles
Young Sociolinguist - 28 Dec 2005 17:41 GMT
Well, well. I just wanted to remind someone not to start quarrels about
religion, not to start one myself. No one here wants to play a witch
hunter, do we? By replying to what Paul Burke wrote I wanted to stop
some other people from criticising his views in too harsh a way, that's
all. I may now disagree with John of Aix, but my lips shall be sealed.
Let's discuss English and British culture instead.
Young Sociolinguist - 28 Dec 2005 17:41 GMT
Well, well. I just wanted to remind someone not to start quarrels about
religion, not to start one myself. No one here wants to play a witch
hunter, do we? By replying to what Paul Burke wrote I wanted to stop
some other people from criticising his views in too harsh a way, that's
all. I may now disagree with John of Aix, but my lips shall be sealed.
Let's discuss English and British culture instead.
Giles Todd - 21 Dec 2005 23:28 GMT
> You seem to miscomprehend some issues, but I am not a person who would
> try to convert you by all means. As to the Polish nation, I bet you've
> never been to my country and your views on the matter are based on
> stereotypes.

But yours of us aren't, right?

Excuse me while I fetch my bowler hat and umbrella in case it rains.

Giles
Paul Burke - 22 Dec 2005 08:36 GMT
>  Just don't reply with more irony, for I don't want to make
> enemies here.

Sorry, I didn't realise that Poles had less sense of hunour than Germans.
Pawel Piotr Stawski - 25 Dec 2005 17:42 GMT
>>  Just don't reply with more irony, for I don't want to make
>> enemies here.

Well, there were times.  Use as much irony as you can.

Now I even appreciate when you use some non-standard vocabulary as I try to
remember as much as possible. Don't take offence or anything, please. I
really learnt words: sod off, bog off, eff off and although it was said in a
dialogue that itself wasn't pleasant I took people's advice to my heart and
(oh I just translated Polish expression - is it possible to say so in
English?) and I am going to convice you that after all I am not a bad guy.
Take care,
Regards,
Still Merry Christmas

> Sorry, I didn't realise that Poles had less sense of hunour than Germans.

We have a sense of humour. Comparison is impossible. Stereotypes are always
dangerous. So we better stop comparing peoples in this way.
Regards,
pawel
Molly Mockford - 25 Dec 2005 21:50 GMT
At 18:42:27 on Sun, 25 Dec 2005, Pawel Piotr Stawski
<english@stawski.pl> wrote in
<3c29e$43aeda12$d4ba586d$14838@news.chello.pl>:

>Now I even appreciate when you use some non-standard vocabulary as I try to
>remember as much as possible. Don't take offence or anything, please. I
>really learnt words: sod off, bog off, eff off and although it was said in a
>dialogue that itself wasn't pleasant I took people's advice to my heart and
>(oh I just translated Polish expression - is it possible to say so in
>English?) and I am going to convice you that after all I am not a bad guy.

This is good.  We said unpleasant things to you, eventually, because you
had already said unpleasant things to us - whether or not you realised
that you were doing so (and I think you did realise that you were doing
so).  May this happen no more.  (Now, there is a grammatical
construction which you may wish to look up!)

>> Sorry, I didn't realise that Poles had less sense of hunour than Germans.
>
>We have a sense of humour. Comparison is impossible. Stereotypes are always
>dangerous. So we better stop comparing peoples in this way.

Paul was being *ironic*.  The point that he was making was all about
stereotypes. You kept asking what English/British people think/say/do.
We are all individuals, just as much as Germans and Poles are all
individuals.

British people make heavy use of irony (which is very different from
sarcasm) and this can be extremely difficult for non-British people to
understand (Americans have a particular problem with it, since they
assume that we speak the same language).  It is a thing which, if you
really want to understand idiomatic UK English and the way that British
people think and speak, you have spent time studying.  There is really
no easy way into it.

Basically, Pawel, you're getting another (Christmas) chance, despite
your very inauspicious beginnings.  If you realise that we are not here
for your own benefit, but in fact are here for our own enjoyment, then
you can fit in without too much problem.

(You will note that in my last few posts I have stopped using "easy
English" when replying to you.  I consider you intelligent and educated
enough to use dictionaries where necessary, so I don't avoid words like
"inauspicious" when talking to you. Take this as a compliment.)
Signature

Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Paul Burke - 22 Dec 2005 08:39 GMT
> As to the Polish nation, I bet you've
> never been to my country and your views on the matter are based on
> stereotypes.

Not Poland, only Krakow. Some of my best friends are Poles.

Paul Burke
Village of Doom - 17 Jan 2006 15:03 GMT
> No, it's the Poles who are raving religious nutters.
>
> Paul Burke

Only perhaps 10% of Polish population are really devout, with perhaps
additional 10% attending regularly mass each Sunday. The rest go to
church for hatches, matches and dispatches only.

We have our group of raving religious nutters. They aren't numerous,
though, but noisy. That's why they seem great in number.

VoD
Paul Burke - 17 Jan 2006 15:50 GMT
> Only perhaps 10% of Polish population are really devout, with perhaps
> additional 10% attending regularly mass each Sunday. The rest go to
> church for hatches, matches and dispatches only.

Recent Church of England figures give the number of regular (once a
month or better) attenders at a little over than 3% of the population.
Other Christian sects will increase this a bit, but the number is still
small compared with the 70% or so who identify themselves as Christians.
About 15% claimed no religion in the last census.

> We have our group of raving religious nutters. They aren't numerous,
> though, but noisy. That's why they seem great in number.

So often the way. Have you got rid of the odious Glemp yet?

Paul Burke
Nick Wagg - 17 Jan 2006 16:11 GMT
> > Only perhaps 10% of Polish population are really devout, with perhaps
> > additional 10% attending regularly mass each Sunday. The rest go to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> So often the way. Have you got rid of the odious Glemp yet?

Of course, there were those religious nutters who stood up against
Communism and played their part in bringing about a peaceful
revolution and freeing Eastern Europe, many of them being killed,
such as Father Jerzy Popieluszko (1947-84).
Paul Burke - 17 Jan 2006 17:20 GMT
> Of course, there were those religious nutters who stood up against
> Communism and played their part in bringing about a peaceful
> revolution and freeing Eastern Europe, many of them being killed,
> such as Father Jerzy Popieluszko (1947-84).

Well, "many" killed is something of an exaggeration, but agreed that
even one was too many. No, it's their subsequent actions that have
disgraced them- particulary the shenanigins over Auschwitz.

Paul Burke
Nick Wagg - 18 Jan 2006 09:17 GMT
> > Of course, there were those religious nutters who stood up against
> > Communism and played their part in bringing about a peaceful
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Well, "many" killed is something of an exaggeration, but agreed that
> even one was too many.

Dozens, yes.  Hundreds, maybe.  Thousands, no.

> No, it's their subsequent actions that have disgraced them- particulary
> the shenanigins over Auschwitz.

Are we talking about recent events (of which I am ignorant)
or of those of sixty years ago?
Paul Burke - 18 Jan 2006 10:09 GMT
> Are we talking about recent events (of which I am ignorant)
> or of those of sixty years ago?

The crosses, Carmelite nunnery, and so on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_cross

While of course some Polish Catholics died in Auschwitz, the vast
majority were Jews, and most of the rest Gipsies or Commies, and Poland
has rather less than a distinguished record of its treatment of Jews
(and, for that matter, Gipsies, but so do most other countries in that
respect).

Paul Burke
Nick Wagg - 19 Jan 2006 09:52 GMT
> > Are we talking about recent events (of which I am ignorant)
> > or of those of sixty years ago?
>
> The crosses, Carmelite nunnery, and so on:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_cross

Ah well, I didn't know. Fanatical Jews v. fanatical Catholics.

> While of course some Polish Catholics died in Auschwitz, the vast
> majority were Jews, and most of the rest Gipsies or Commies, and Poland
> has rather less than a distinguished record of its treatment of Jews
> (and, for that matter, Gipsies, but so do most other countries in that
> respect).

I thought that the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust as a whole
was roughly half of the total.  Let's not forget the large numbers of
mentally deficient (to use an old-fashioned term), whose numbers were
swelled by anyone whose aberrations or quirks irked those in authority.
John Briggs - 19 Jan 2006 13:49 GMT
> I thought that the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust as a whole
> was roughly half of the total.  Let's not forget the large numbers of
> mentally deficient (to use an old-fashioned term), whose numbers were
> swelled by anyone whose aberrations or quirks irked those in
> authority.

You thought wrongly.  The figure of 6 million Jews means just that, and is
is based on the Nazis' own records.
Signature

John Briggs

David - 19 Jan 2006 16:53 GMT
> > I thought that the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust as a
> > whole was roughly half of the total.  Let's not forget the large
> > numbers of mentally deficient (to use an old-fashioned term), whose
> > numbers were swelled by anyone whose aberrations or quirks irked
> > those in authority.

> You thought wrongly.  The figure of 6 million Jews means just that,
> and is is based on the Nazis' own records.

And doesn't the term "holocaust" refer only to the killing of the six
million or more Jews and not the others who died as prisoners of the
Nazis?

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Paul Burke - 19 Jan 2006 17:11 GMT
> And doesn't the term "holocaust" refer only to the killing of the six
> million or more Jews and not the others who died as prisoners of the
> Nazis?

It's a difficult point. Personally, I would refer to the Holocaust as
the operation of the death camps plus the SS Einsatzgrueppen, but
include all victims. The Jews were by far the largest group of these,
though Roma and Slavs formed very significant minorities.

The numbers "game" is particularly dificult when Polish and Soviet
(Russain, Ukrainian, etc.) non-Jews are taken into account, as the
numbers killed in those cases add up to at least several million, though
many of those were in reprisal attacks and "collateral damage".
Furthermore, it gets very difficult to break down the total carnage
between Hiltler's actions and Stalin's revenge.

Paul Burke
Young Sociolinguist - 20 Jan 2006 21:37 GMT
To every Tom, Dick and Harry:
I do hereby apologise for writing anything in this thread and all other
evil I have done. I shall be delighted to the utmost if I am given an
opportunity to discuss any other topic in less excitable a manner.
Thank you. (imagine this was spoken with conservative RP).
Young Sociolinguist - 20 Jan 2006 22:11 GMT
Sorry for the previous one, but every time I see new messages posted in
this thread flashing at my "Your posts" page, it does unnerve me. I was
silly enough to comment upon a slightly odd post and started a
veritable danse macabre about the most horrid of issues, one that's
been going on for a month now. From now on my lips will be sealed on
the topics of Polish history, Christmas customs and the respect I or
someone else may or may not have for the Catholic Church. mmmmphh
P.S. mmmphhh mph
Village of Doom - 18 Jan 2006 07:32 GMT
> Of course, there were those religious nutters who stood up against
> Communism and played their part in bringing about a peaceful
> revolution and freeing Eastern Europe, many of them being killed,
> such as Father Jerzy Popieluszko (1947-84).

Jerzy Popieluszko isn't considered to have been a religious nutter. In
fact, he was moderate religiously. He wouldn't have been so well known
and considered such a hero if it hadn't been for the bestial way he was
murdered by the state security. If they had put a bullet into his head,
he would have been remembered as only one of the many who died for
freedom and democracy.
David - 20 Dec 2005 08:59 GMT
> I heard and learnt as well that you British are not really pious any
> more.

Who hate all the pious?

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John Hall - 20 Dec 2005 09:49 GMT
>> I heard and learnt as well that you British are not really pious any
>> more.
>
>Who hate all the pious?

Groan! :)

The OP will now be totally mystified.
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John Hall

    "I am not young enough to know everything."
                                                Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

Nick Wagg - 20 Dec 2005 11:27 GMT
> >> I heard and learnt as well that you British are not really pious any
> >> more.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> The OP will now be totally mystified.

Piou, Piou, Barley, McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
Paul Burke - 20 Dec 2005 12:17 GMT
> Piou, Piou, Barley, McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.

Ah, the Seven Deadly Firemen.
Tony Mountifield - 20 Dec 2005 14:31 GMT
> > Piou, Piou, Barley, McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble & Grubb.
>
> Ah, the Seven Deadly Firemen.

But I thought the third was Barney, not Barley.

Cheers
Tony
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Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

Nick Wagg - 20 Dec 2005 09:30 GMT
> I heard and learnt as well that you British are not really pious any more.
> Would you agree? Tell me more about it. It is a piece of knowledge I cannot
> just find. It must be told by you.
> If it touches your personal feelings, accept my appologies. However, here
> you should be able to treat it as a secular issue.

"Pious" is not the right word.  You might have said "religiously observant"
to which I would have to reply that the nation has steadily become more
secular throughout the 20th century.

I think most people whose families have lived in these islands for several
generations at least put up a Christmas tree and other decorations, and
celebrate Christmas with plenty of traditional food and drink.

The Christian devout will also attend church and celebrate Christmas in a
more religious sense, as well as decorating their houses and indulging their
stomachs.

Some of the less devout attend church, perhaps for the only time in the
year,
except maybe for Easter and for christenings, weddings and funerals
(hatches,
matches and dispatches), either because they feel they ought to, or because
it is a condition of membership of their church, or else because they enjoy
the
carols and candles and like to hear the familiar stories.

Other religious groups observe a variety of festivals of light and
celebrations
of the end of Winter, or at least the Solstice, in their own ways.

Then there are those who observe ancient folk customs because they like
to keep them alive, such as wassailers, mummers and first-footers (at
New Year).
John Briggs - 20 Dec 2005 11:25 GMT
>> I heard and learnt as well that you British are not really pious any
>> more. Would you agree? Tell me more about it. It is a piece of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> observant" to which I would have to reply that the nation has
> steadily become more secular throughout the 20th century.

Perhaps you might have added that we distinguish between religious and
religiose - something which seems to elude Americans.
Signature

John Briggs

Pawe³ Piotr Stawski - 20 Dec 2005 21:28 GMT
>> I heard and learnt as well that you British are not really pious any
>> more.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> (hatches,
> matches and dispatches),

Hatches - like birds, birthdays
matches- weddings
dispatches - leaving this world
right?

Pawel

either because they feel they ought to, or because
> it is a condition of membership of their church, or else because they
> enjoy
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to keep them alive, such as wassailers, mummers and first-footers (at
> New Year).
Dave Fawthrop - 21 Dec 2005 07:00 GMT
| Hatches - like birds, birthdays
| matches- weddings
| dispatches - leaving this world
| right?

Except delete, yearly birthdays.
Attending Church three times a lifetime is quite enough for most.
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get it back report on http://www.menduk.org/ or 08701 123 123.

John of Aix - 21 Dec 2005 20:27 GMT
>> Hatches - like birds, birthdays
>> matches- weddings
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Except delete, yearly birthdays.
> Attending Church three times a lifetime is quite enough for most.

Objection your honour. Surely when it is dispatch time one is not,
strictly speaking, attending.
Einde O'Callaghan - 21 Dec 2005 20:42 GMT
>>>Hatches - like birds, birthdays
>>>matches- weddings
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Objection your honour. Surely when it is dispatch time one is not,
> strictly speaking, attending.

True, but one is very definitely bodily present.

At hatch time too, one is not usually mentally present, so to speak.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Paul Burke - 22 Dec 2005 08:38 GMT
>  Surely when it is dispatch time one is not,
> strictly speaking, attending.

I suspect the protagonist at a funeral is as religiously aware as him at
the other nodal events.

Paul Burke
Mike Stevens - 21 Dec 2005 07:23 GMT
>> Some of the less devout attend church, perhaps for the only time in
>> the year,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Hatches - like birds, birthdays

Baptisms

--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

No man is an island.  So is Man.
Nick Wagg - 21 Dec 2005 09:05 GMT
> Hatches - like birds, birthdays

Not annual birthdays but births.
For some denominations this will mean baptism or Christening.
Those who only believe in adult baptism have a celebration of
thanksgiving.

> matches- weddings
> dispatches - leaving this world
> right?

Yup.
Young Sociolinguist - 21 Dec 2005 15:30 GMT
Now, you've caused quite a stir. The pamphlet "Religion" in "Insight
UK" published by the Foreign & Commonwealth Office in London (2001)
says: "There are 7.9 million active members of religions in the UK";
"25 million people baptised into the Church of England", but (about C
of E), "Average attendance at Sunday Services: 1.1 million" (not
impressive, innit?). Now the saddest thing of all: "Over the last 20
years Catholic church attendance has dropped by 29%". I hope thanks to
all those students and workers that are constantly flooding the UK the
Catholic church attendance will skyrocket, zooooom. I got the pamphlet
at the Brit. Library in Gdansk. Wesolych Swiat.
Nick Wagg - 21 Dec 2005 16:26 GMT
> Now, you've caused quite a stir. The pamphlet "Religion" in "Insight
> UK" published by the Foreign & Commonwealth Office in London (2001)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Catholic church attendance will skyrocket, zooooom. I got the pamphlet
> at the Brit. Library in Gdansk. Wesolych Swiat.

I started to write a response to this from the point of view of a
formerly active Baptist but decided that it might start a flame war
and such a discussion doesn't really belong in this news group.
 
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