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1960s motorways

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Pawe³ Piotr Stawski - 25 Dec 2005 22:04 GMT
Could you tell me if there are any names for your motorways and how they
have changed over years, please?

Regards,
Pawel
Poland
Molly Mockford - 25 Dec 2005 22:20 GMT
At 23:04:31 on Sun, 25 Dec 2005, Pawe³ Piotr Stawski
<english@stawski.pl> wrote in
<86d11$43af176f$d4ba586d$31920@news.chello.pl>:

>Could you tell me if there are any names for your motorways and how they
>have changed over years, please?

The first one was the M1.  It was given that name just because it was
the very first (M for motorway, 1 for first).  Subsequent motorways were
named after the A roads which they paralleled - for example, the M4, the
M8 etc.  The one which paralleled the A1 had to be named the A1(M)
because the name M1 had already been used.

None of the names have ever changed since they were built.  Why would
you think they should?  Do the names of motorways often change in
Poland?
Signature

Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Pawel Piotr Stawski - 25 Dec 2005 22:24 GMT
> At 23:04:31 on Sun, 25 Dec 2005, Pawe³ Piotr Stawski <english@stawski.pl>
> wrote in <86d11$43af176f$d4ba586d$31920@news.chello.pl>:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> None of the names have ever changed since they were built.  Why would you
> think they should?  Do the names of motorways often change in Poland?

I thought of some 'nicknames'. For example the motorway from Warsaw to
Katowice in Poland is called nothing but 'Gierkowka' after Polish Comunist
Prime Minister of 1960-1970s. I even do not know what is the code of this
motorway. We also call it 'Katowice' motorway. And to tell you the truth
this is the common name given to this highway.
Yes, the codes in Poland change quite often and for us it is a real pain in
the neck.
Regards,
Pawel
John Briggs - 26 Dec 2005 14:17 GMT
> At 23:04:31 on Sun, 25 Dec 2005, Pawe³ Piotr Stawski
> <english@stawski.pl> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> M4, the M8 etc.  The one which paralleled the A1 had to be named the
> A1(M) because the name M1 had already been used.

No.  The first motorway was the Preston by-pass section of the M6, which was
opened before the M1.  The rest of the M6 was built later.  The M1 was
probably so called because it was intended to replace the A1, although it
paralled the A5 and the A6 for the first part.  The M5 has, of course, no
connection to the A5.
Signature

John Briggs

Paul Burke - 30 Dec 2005 08:49 GMT
>  The first motorway was the Preston by-pass section of the M6, which was
> opened before the M1.  The rest of the M6 was built later.  The M1 was
> probably so called because it was intended to replace the A1, although it
> paralled the A5 and the A6 for the first part.  The M5 has, of course, no
> connection to the A5.

I suspect the M1 was so called because it was a replacement for the A1,
and you couldn't have an M1 that didn't start in London. Apart from the
M5 (which it's possible was originally conceived a replacement A5,
London to Holyhead, but later re- routed), most of the other early
motorways take the name from the parallel A road.

Paul Burke
Pawel Piotr Stawski - 30 Dec 2005 13:51 GMT
>>  The first motorway was the Preston by-pass section of the M6, which was
>> opened before the M1.  The rest of the M6 was built later.  The M1 was
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Holyhead, but later re- routed), most of the other early motorways take
> the name from the parallel A road.

You know, I am looking for some nicknames. For instance, M6 from London past
Birmingham up north to Glasgow, Scotland was called the Backbone of Britain.
Are you familiar with this name? My question is, if common, ordinary people
know this name or is it only used in some more newspapers?

Regards,
Pawel
> Paul Burke
John Briggs - 30 Dec 2005 14:28 GMT
>>>  The first motorway was the Preston by-pass section of the M6,
>>> which was opened before the M1.  The rest of the M6 was built
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> if common, ordinary people know this name or is it only used in some
> more newspapers?

The M6 doesn't start from London - it branches off the M1 east of Coventry.
It doesn't reach the Scottish border.  The continuation to Glasgow is the
A74/M74.  I have never heard the supposed nickname - and I don't suppose
anyone else has either.  We've already told you - motorways don't have
nicknames.
Signature

John Briggs

Pawe³ Piotr Stawski - 30 Dec 2005 17:03 GMT
>>>>  The first motorway was the Preston by-pass section of the M6,
>>>> which was opened before the M1.  The rest of the M6 was built
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> The M6 doesn't start from London

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/motorway/m6/ to be exact if your really feel like
being precise.

- it branches off the M1 east of Coventry.
> It doesn't reach the Scottish border.  The continuation to Glasgow is the
> A74/M74.

Was it really so important to corect me on those small details? I know
exactly where this mororway goes.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/M6%20motorway

I have read on the topic a lot recently. So stop bugging me, please.
http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/

I have never heard the supposed nickname - and I don't suppose
> anyone else has either.  We've already told you
- motorways don't have
> nicknames.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/M6%20motorway
especially:
line 5 from top. there you go. backbone. You haven't heard. OK. If you
haven't seen "bigos" it does not mean it does not exist.
Regards,
Pawel

Bibliography that I have used in my work. So please, be so kind and tell me
only things I do not know.

Regards,

Pawe³

 1.. http://www.cbrd.co.uk/histories/timeline/

 2.. http://www.iht.org/motorway/ukroadmaps.htm

 3.. Sabre website: http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/

 4.. BBC website:http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/

 5.. Eurotunnel website:
http://www.eurotunnel.com/ET_P3UI/Common/Templates/xxtGateway.aspx?NRMODE=Publis
hed&NRORIGINALURL=%2fukcp3main&NRNODEGUID=%7bFAE1E01E-BDF1-4208-85BE-31B0D8AC935
C%7d&NRCACHEHINT=Guest
#

 6.. The Anti-Social Bastards in Our Midst:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=76&ItemID=9357

 7.. Article about Sir William Harris:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,2763,1447170,00.html

 8.. Birmingham: http://www.birminghamuk.com/wikipedia/

 9.. Source of pictures: http://bealach-na-ba.fotopic.net/

 10.. Department for Transport:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_localtrans/documents/sectionhomepage/d
ft_local_transport_page.hcsp

John Briggs - 30 Dec 2005 17:49 GMT
>>>>>  The first motorway was the Preston by-pass section of the M6,
>>>>> which was opened before the M1.  The rest of the M6 was built
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> exactly where this mororway goes.
> http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/M6%20motorway

Why?  Because this is a newsgroup for pedants to quibble about English
language usage in the UK.  If you knew exactly where the motorway went you
wouldn't have made the mistake.

> I have read on the topic a lot recently. So stop bugging me, please.
> http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/
>
> http://www.cbrd.co.uk/

On the contrary, you are bugging us.

>> I have never heard the supposed nickname - and I don't suppose
>> anyone else has either.  We've already told you
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> line 5 from top. there you go. backbone. You haven't heard. OK. If you
> haven't seen "bigos" it does not mean it does not exist.

And they took it from the Wikipedia.  God knows where they got it from.  You
asked the question - I gave the answer.  You have been warned about your
attitude before.
Signature

John Briggs

Pawe³ Piotr Stawski - 31 Dec 2005 11:50 GMT
>>>>>>  The first motorway was the Preston by-pass section of the M6,
>>>>>> which was opened before the M1.  The rest of the M6 was built
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> And they took it from the Wikipedia.  God knows where they got it from.
> You asked the question - I gave the answer.  You have been warned

I quitted. You do not discuss anything here. And you just cannot help
warning and threatening me. I do not care what you add to this tread.
Regards,
Pawel

about your
> attitude before.
Molly Mockford - 31 Dec 2005 14:24 GMT
At 12:50:14 on Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Pawe³ Piotr Stawski
<p.stawski@chello.pl> wrote in
<d461f$43b67086$d4ba586d$2987@news.chello.pl>:

>I quitted. You do not discuss anything here. And you just cannot help
>warning and threatening me. I do not care what you add to this tread.

Happy New Year, everybody!
Signature

Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Einde O'Callaghan - 31 Dec 2005 15:25 GMT
> At 12:50:14 on Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Pawe³ Piotr Stawski
> <p.stawski@chello.pl> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Happy New Year, everybody!

I would like to add my best wishes for the new Year to all regulars.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
David - 31 Dec 2005 17:22 GMT
> > Happy New Year, everybody!

> I would like to add my best wishes for the new Year to all regulars.

Same from me, along with best wishes for Xmas.

Signature

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/

Pawe³ Piotr Stawski - 31 Dec 2005 20:37 GMT
>> > Happy New Year, everybody!
>
>> I would like to add my best wishes for the new Year to all regulars.
>
> Same from me, along with best wishes for Xmas.

Happy New Year, everybody.
Although, most the time I am a nuisance and a pest as well but I can tell
you one thing: I love your language!
Take care as it is snowing everywhere!
Pawel
from snowy Poland

snow use clearing that snow
Pedt - 03 Jan 2006 16:08 GMT
In message <41nm5uF1ff5qaU1@individual.net>, at 16:25:52 on Sat, 31 Dec
2005, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wibbled
>> At 12:50:14 on Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Pawe³ Piotr Stawski
>><p.stawski@chello.pl> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>I would like to add my best wishes for the new Year to all regulars.

Me too.

I lurk far more than I ever post but I hope that doesn't preclude me
from wishing everyone the very best for 2006.

Signature

Pedt
Helpful words 04: Formicate (v) To swarm like ants. CCTV staff at rush hour
might want to say "Do you know that the passengers are formicating all over
the station platforms."

Erick Andrews - 03 Jan 2006 00:56 GMT
> At 12:50:14 on Sat, 31 Dec 2005, Pawe³ Piotr Stawski
> <p.stawski@chello.pl> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Happy New Year, everybody!

Well, Happy New Year from me to everyone, too.

I thought I stick this-here-query of mine on to your thread, Molly.

Maybe it's a bit OT, but I'm wondering if you, or anyone else might
know of a song or rhyme about the M4?  It goes sumpin' like --

 Ho hum po and fargle
 Down by the new M4...

 [and it keeps a repetitive refrain of "Ho hum po and fargle"]

and I can't remember much more of it.  It may have been some
popular 'ballad' in the '70s, or not long after the construction of
the M4, but I honesty can't say.   Ever heard of it?  Maybe it was
just a spoof on Radio 4 before I moved to the area in the early
'80s?

Signature

Best,
Erick Andrews
delete bogus to reply

Molly Mockford - 03 Jan 2006 07:49 GMT
At 00:56:10 on Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Erick Andrews <eandrews@bogusstar.net>
wrote in <sGi8lzkop2Rq-pn2-h3KpZsZ58bnz@HAL9000>:

>I thought I stick this-here-query of mine on to your thread, Molly.

Not "my" thread - I didn't even start it, and no thread "belongs" to
anyone!

>Maybe it's a bit OT, but I'm wondering if you, or anyone else might
>know of a song or rhyme about the M4?  It goes sumpin' like --
>
>  Ho hum po and fargle
>  Down by the new M4...

I'm afraid I've never heard of it.  I've done a quick search at the
Digital Tradition database and the discussion forums at the Mudcat Cafe
<http://www.mudcat.org>, but with no luck.

You could try asking on uk.music.folk - it's amazing what people there
can dredge up from their memories!
Signature

Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Mike Stevens - 03 Jan 2006 12:28 GMT
> At 00:56:10 on Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Erick Andrews <eandrews@bogusstar.net>
> wrote in <sGi8lzkop2Rq-pn2-h3KpZsZ58bnz@HAL9000>:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Digital Tradition database and the discussion forums at the Mudcat Cafe
> <http://www.mudcat.org>, but with no luck.

It sounds to me rather in the style of Rambling Sid Rump (who, for those of
you who don't remember him, was a spoof folk-singer, played by Kenneth
Williams in either "Round the Horne" or "Beyond our Ken", or possibly
oth  -  UK radio comedy of a few decades ago).

--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
John Briggs - 03 Jan 2006 12:46 GMT
>> At 00:56:10 on Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Erick Andrews
>> <eandrews@bogusstar.net> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> or possibly
> oth  -  UK radio comedy of a few decades ago).

That's Rambling Syd Rumpo, of course.  Unlikely to be him, the M4 didn't go
beyond Maidenhead in his day.
Signature

John Briggs

David M - 03 Jan 2006 15:56 GMT
Pawe³ Piotr Stawski wrote in uk.culture.language.english
about: Re: 1960s motorways

>> The M6 doesn't start from London
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> exactly where this mororway goes.
> http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/M6%20motorway

Given that you've looked up the details for yourself, it would seem that
you *are* quite interested in the exact details. Also, as most people
don't really give roads more than the most cursory thoughts, anyone who
does is usually quite keen to know that the information that they should
possess is the most accurate.

There's no need to be so rude to somebody who has voluntarily given up a
moment of their time to supply you with a snippet of relevant
information that you might find useful. That's the nature of usenet,
after all.

> I have read on the topic a lot recently. So stop bugging me, please.
> http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/

Regular contributors to this newsgroup have commented quite a lot on
your rudeness recently. You profess to apologise, yet never seem to
show any signs of acting more as one would expect in public.

Do you really think that "Stop bugging me" is really an appropriate way
to respond to somebody who was only offering you some additional
information, free of charge?

Your grasp of English is generally very good, so you surely must know
that "Stop bugging me" is a /fairly/ rude thing to say, and completely
inappropriate in the circumstances.

You could easily just have said, "Thank you, but I've already looked up
some websites which provide this information:", thereby contributing
some useful information back to the group for those unaware of those
websites, yet you didn't. A somewhat more friendly way of responding,
don't you think?

I'm afraid to say that your continuing rudeness, and barrage of
questioning, is likely to find you ending up in my scorefile as well.

Signature

David M. -- Edinburgh, Scotland.--[en, fr, (de)]--[reply-to valid <365d]
» Please trim quotes & interleave reply for readability, don't be lazy «
» Please feel free to help me by correcting my foreign language errors «
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Paul Burke - 03 Jan 2006 09:06 GMT
>   We've already told you - motorways don't have
> nicknames.

I've heard various names for the M25, but my ISP would cut me off if I
told you them.
Anna Langley - 03 Jan 2006 10:18 GMT
>>   We've already told you - motorways don't have
>> nicknames.
>
> I've heard various names for the M25, but my ISP would cut me
> off if I told you them.

Certainly a great many colourful adjectives have been used to
describe the M25, many of which it surely deserves. But as for
alternative names, the only one I know is "the London orbital
car park".

Anna
Peter Duncanson - 30 Dec 2005 14:27 GMT
>>  The first motorway was the Preston by-pass section of the M6, which was
>> opened before the M1.  The rest of the M6 was built later.  The M1 was
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>London to Holyhead, but later re- routed), most of the other early
>motorways take the name from the parallel A road.

There is more information about this at:
http://www.answers.com/topic/great-britain-road-numbering-scheme

Briefly:

The main trunk roads, single digit A roads, radiate out from London (A1
to A6) and Edinburgh (A7 to A9). The numbers increase clockwise.

These roads divide the country (England and Wales, and, separately,
Scotland) into zones. For example the "3" zone lies between the A3 and
the A4. All roads starting in that zone have numbers beginning with 3.

The main motorways roughly parallel the main trunk roads and similarly
divide the country into zones for (motorway) numbering purposes.

As far as I know the M5 was not conceived of as a replacement A5. Its
number presumably derives from the fact that it starts at a place that
is between the M4 and the M6.

Roads are considered to start at a major city/town and finish at a
lesser. Thus the M5 starts at Birmingham and ends at Exeter.

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from u.c.l.e)

David M - 03 Jan 2006 15:15 GMT
Molly Mockford wrote in uk.culture.language.english
about: Re: 1960s motorways

> None of the names have ever changed since they were built.  Why would
> you think they should?  Do the names of motorways often change in
> Poland?

Road numbers often change as the exact path followed by the main route
changes from time to time as new roads are built, or incongruities in
numbering are rectified. Although this is more common (in the UK) with
'A'-roads, some motorway numbers have changed, eg:

M4 Severn Bridge I -> M48
M85 -> M90
M74 -> M6    (expected outcome if England ever gets around to extending
            the M6 to the Scottish border)

Signature

David M. -- Edinburgh, Scotland.--[en, fr, (de)]--[reply-to valid <365d]
» Please trim quotes & interleave reply for readability, don't be lazy «
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Dave Fawthrop - 26 Dec 2005 07:28 GMT
| Could you tell me if there are any names for your motorways and how they
| have changed over years, please?

We do not *name* motorways, they are known by their numbers.
Roads get names, such as the A1 (Great North Road).  

The names A, B and C of roads rarely change,  but the numbers are
unreliable, and the planners detrunk main roads which have been
bypassed, or make minor roads into major roads.
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David M - 03 Jan 2006 15:01 GMT
Dave Fawthrop wrote in uk.culture.language.english
about: Re: 1960s motorways

>| Could you tell me if there are any names for your motorways and how they
>| have changed over years, please?
>
> We do not *name* motorways, they are known by their numbers.
> Roads get names, such as the A1 (Great North Road).  

Actually, that's not entirely true.

The M25 is somewhat pretentiously-entitled "London Orbital Motorway"
(whatever was wrong with just plain old "ring road"?), and even says
"M25 London Orbital" on distance signs.

The arms of Glasgow's strangulating concrete octopus (fortunately, only
a few arms were built) were (formally?) known as "Renfrew Motorway",
"Monklands Motorway", "Maryhill Motorway", etc, and are possibly still
known as such by some, but are only indicated by number on signs.

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David M. -- Edinburgh, Scotland.--[en, fr, (de)]--[reply-to valid <365d]
» Please trim quotes & interleave reply for readability, don't be lazy «
» Please feel free to help me by correcting my foreign language errors «
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{R} - 09 Jan 2006 15:23 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english on Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:01:17 +0000, David M
<david@bogus.domain.dom> wrote:

}Dave Fawthrop wrote in uk.culture.language.english
} about: Re: 1960s motorways
}
}> On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 23:04:31 +0100, "Pawe³ Piotr Stawski"
}><english@stawski.pl> wrote:
}>
}>| Could you tell me if there are any names for your motorways and how they
}>| have changed over years, please?
}>
}> We do not *name* motorways, they are known by their numbers.
}> Roads get names, such as the A1 (Great North Road).  
}
}Actually, that's not entirely true.
}
}The M25 is somewhat pretentiously-entitled "London Orbital Motorway"
}(whatever was wrong with just plain old "ring road"?), and even says
}"M25 London Orbital" on distance signs.

I believe that it got its name from the A25 which it parallels on the
Southern half of the route. The A25 is the only one of the A2, A20, A21,
A22, A23, A24 that does not go to London

The M25 is also as far as I know the only "Orbital" road where if you wish
to go orbitally you have to turn left/right off the M25 or else end up on
the M26/A21

{R}
John Briggs - 09 Jan 2006 16:28 GMT
> In uk.culture.language.english on Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:01:17 +0000,
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> wish to go orbitally you have to turn left/right off the M25 or else
> end up on the M26/A21

Although something similar happens with the M1 at Leeds, where you have to
change lanes in order to stay on the M1 (both directions, IIRC).
Signature

John Briggs

Nick Wagg - 09 Jan 2006 17:55 GMT
> The M25 is also as far as I know the only "Orbital" road where if you wish
> to go orbitally you have to turn left/right off the M25 or else end up on
> the M26/A21

There are plenty of ring roads which require you to turn left
or right, sometimes keeping to the same road number and
sometimes not.  That said, the M25 is a fairly major ring road.
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2006 19:39 GMT
| > The M25 is also as far as I know the only "Orbital" road where if you wish
| > to go orbitally you have to turn left/right off the M25 or else end up on
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
| or right, sometimes keeping to the same road number and
| sometimes not.  That said, the M25 is a fairly major ring road.

The part of the old M62 north of Manchester which is now the M60 is my
pet hate.   You lose the M62 for a while then it reappears :-(
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