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Discussion Groups / British English / January 2006Space before ? ! : ;
I note on usenet that there are two conventions about the positioning of punctuation ? ! : and ; The a majority post "is this correct?" While a significant minority post "is this correct ?" IMO this must be that this is a carry over from hand writing. Does anyone here follow the second convention, and if so where and when were they taught it? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I produce e-books for out of copyright Yorkshire Dialect Books, for Project Gutenberg who in thier FAQ suggest. http://www.gutenberg.org/faq/V-104 The Project Gutenberg FAQ - V-104V.104. My book leaves a space before punctuation like semicolons, question marks, exclamation marks and quotes. Should I do the same? No. If you look closely at these "spaces", you will see that they are not as wide as a normal space--they tend to be half to three-quarters as wide. These don't actually represent spaces as such; they were just a convention used by typesetters to make the text feel less cramped, and they did not express any specific intent on the part of the author. OCR software tends to see them as full spaces, and one of the jobs you typically have to do when editing a text that has been OCRed is to remove them. In some texts, this also happens following an opening quote, so your OCR might read a sentence as: " Hello ! How are you to-day ? " which you should correct to: "Hello! How are you to-day?" <<< Looking at the books I work on the space before these characters is a full space similar to the space between words, in poetry and so not justified. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Perhaps this as yet another difference between English and American.  SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ > I note on usenet that there are two conventions about the positioning > of punctuation ? ! : and ; [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Does anyone here follow the second convention, and if so where and > when were they taught it? I had this discussion on another group recently. I thought it was a US convention to put in the space but in fact, after a check, I realised that it wasn't them but the French who do this. I don't know if other European languages do it also. Personally in Fr or Eng I don't use the space. "John of Aix" <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote... > > I note on usenet that there are two conventions about the > > positioning of punctuation ? ! : and ; [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > European languages do it also. Personally in Fr or Eng I don't use the > space. I noticed recently that the Enid Blyton "Adventure" series, first published in Britain by Macmillan from 1944 to 1955, puts a half space before ? and ! marks. Matti > "John of Aix" <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote... >>> I note on usenet that there are two conventions about the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > published in Britain by Macmillan from 1944 to 1955, puts a half space > before ? and ! marks. That's a trifle imprecise - there are a variety of spaces available to typesetters. Yes, there was an old typographic convention of inserting a space before ": ; ? !" (it's not consistent for the colon). Similarly, there used to be conventions for (non-proportional) typewriters. I usually put two spaces after a full-stop and question mark and exclamation mark), and one space after all other puctuation marks - but there used to be a convention of three spaces after a full stop and two after comma, etc. SignatureJohn Briggs At 11:12:04 on Sat, 14 Jan 2006, John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in <805yf.68246$Cj5.38221@newsfe6-win.ntli.net>: >Similarly, >there used to be conventions for (non-proportional) typewriters. I usually >put two spaces after a full-stop and question mark and exclamation mark), >and one space after all other puctuation marks - but there used to be a >convention of three spaces after a full stop and two after comma, etc. I was taught to put three after a full stop, question mark or exclamation mark; two after a colon or semi-colon; and one after any other piece of punctuation. These days I've cut the three down to two, but I do maintain the two, because I think it adds greatly to the readability of the text. Many people have no idea of the importance of whitespace! SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 11:12:04 on Sat, 14 Jan 2006, John Briggs > <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > readability of the text. Many people have no idea of the importance > of whitespace! I think that is really the only sensible rule in the end, the legibility of the thing. Some typefaces are very spread out, ohters are not, so while I'm a one space person after punctuation (and none before) I wouldn't hesitate to insert one or two if it helped reading. > At 11:12:04 on Sat, 14 Jan 2006, John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> > wrote in <805yf.68246$Cj5.38221@newsfe6-win.ntli.net>: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > exclamation mark; two after a colon or semi-colon; and one after any > other piece of punctuation. Wasn't that Pitman Training? > These days I've cut the three down to two, > but I do maintain the two, because I think it adds greatly to the > readability of the text. Many people have no idea of the importance of > whitespace! That's what I do too, even when only writing comments in software, unless the insertion of two spaces would force an awkward line-break and a single would not. |Wasn't that Pitman Training? That might well be what I was looking for! If Pitman once taught that one should put a space before ! ? : and ; it would explain why that convention is widespread. Has anyone got more information on this? SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ > On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:14:27 -0000, "Nick Wagg" <naw@transcendata.com> > wrote: > > Wasn't that Pitman Training? > That might well be what I was looking for! If Pitman once taught that one > should put a space before ! ? : and ; it would explain why that convention > is widespread. I meant that Pitman taught that the end of a sentence should be followed by 3 spaces, BICBW. |> On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:14:27 -0000, "Nick Wagg" <naw@transcendata.com> |> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] |I meant that Pitman taught that the end of a sentence should be followed |by 3 spaces, BICBW. Yes but Pitman might have had other standards which might fit the bill. I am in data gathering mode and following up obscure and unlikely leads. SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ At 10:01:47 on Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Dave Fawthrop <invalid@hyphenologist.co.uk.invalid> wrote in <phrms112balv78f8m14e0stfknhfsc3hsn@4ax.com>: >|Wasn't that Pitman Training? > >That might well be what I was looking for! If Pitman once taught that one >should put a space before ! ? : and ; it would explain why that convention >is widespread. No. Pitman training included nothing of the sort. In my experience, the only people (on Usenet, anyway) putting a space before full stops and other punctuation marks are trolls. I'm surprised it's not in your FAQ. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |At 10:01:47 on Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Dave Fawthrop |<invalid@hyphenologist.co.uk.invalid> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | |No. Pitman training included nothing of the sort. Thanks! Another theory bites the dust :-( |In my experience, the only people (on Usenet, anyway) putting a space |before full stops and other punctuation marks are trolls. I'm surprised |it's not in your FAQ. It is really quite widespread, but Allen Hughes used to do it. SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ At 09:14:27 on Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Nick Wagg <naw@transcendata.com> wrote in <dqfo5k$jeh$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>: >> I was taught to put three after a full stop, question mark or >> exclamation mark; two after a colon or semi-colon; and one after any >> other piece of punctuation. > >Wasn't that Pitman Training? Yes, it was - well, sort-of; it was the typing training which one got alongside training in Pitman shorthand. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) John of Aix: >> I note on usenet that there are two conventions about the >> positioning of punctuation ? ! : and ; [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > this. I don't know if other European languages do it also. > Personally in Fr or Eng I don't use the space. In Italian all marks are close to the preceding word. I've read that in France they put a space before "double" marks (: ? !) Signature°¿° |
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