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Discussion Groups / British English / February 2006'I speak good English' or 'I speak English well'?
A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that 'I speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I speak English well' is the correct way of saying it. Is she correct and, if so, why? Many thanks and regards, etc., MS > A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that 'I > speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I speak > English well' is the correct way of saying it. Is she correct and, if > so, why? I have no great problem with either grammatically, but I think people would usually use these constructions to speak of other people and not of themselves, e.g. "You speak good English" or "You speak English well". Regards, Einde O'Callaghan Einde O'Callaghan emailed this: >> A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that >> 'I speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would usually use these constructions to speak of other people and not > of themselves, e.g. "You speak good English" or "You speak English well". How would you say this about yourself? MS > Einde O'Callaghan emailed this: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > How would you say this about yourself? For a start I'd be a bit more modest - I'd probably say something like "I think my English (or French, or German, or whatever) is quite good". Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that > 'I speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I > speak English well' is the correct way of saying it. Is she correct > and, if so, why? 'I speak English good' is not good English, but neither can 'I speak English well' be described as well English.  SignatureJohn Briggs > A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that > 'I speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I > speak English well' is the correct way of saying it. Is she correct > and, if so, why? I would say that the latter is a little bit more formal. The first is a little bit funny to my ear, even, though it is perfectly correct and I might well say it, but probably I'd avoid the mental difficulty by saying "I speak excellent English." I don't really know why, it just feels better. > A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that 'I > speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I speak > English well' is the correct way of saying it. Is she correct and, if so, why? To me, there is a slight difference of meaning between the two. In "I speak good English", "good" is an adjective denoting the quality of the English being spoken. In "I speak English well", "well" is an adverb denoting the skill of the speaker at speaking English. Ok, it's a subtle distinction. :-) Is it possible to speak good English badly or bad English well? Cheers Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org I way always told English is either correct or incorrect, it can't be good or bad, well or ill. Neil Jones > > A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that 'I > > speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I speak [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk > Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org > I way always told English is either correct or incorrect, it can't > be good or bad, well or ill. To my way of looking at things, you have been misinformed. There has been a tendency in English since about the middle 18th Century to try to define "correct" English. However, the language changes (thank goodness) faster than the pedants can keep up with. There are formal rules of grammar that are usually regarded as fixed, but good writers can sometimes ignore these for effect. Shakespeare wrote "Full fathom five the father lies, Of his bones are coral made." Here he links a plural verb "are" with a singluar (some would say uncountable) subject "coral". Most people would say that this is gramatically incorrect, but it would take a very brave person to suggest it wasn't good English! Now don't start me on the subject of spelling or I'll quoste Shakespeare/Shakspear/Shagsberd (all his own spelling, I believe) at you again. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus III web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. > Now don't start me on the subject of spelling or I'll quoste > Shakespeare/Shakspear/Shagsberd (all his own spelling, I believe) at > you again. Don't believe everything you read. His own preferred spelling seems to have been Shake-speare (a bit like Pitt-Kethley, I suppose). SignatureJohn Briggs > I way always told English is either correct or incorrect, it can't be good > or bad, well or ill. You were told wrong. English has a large number of gramatically and syntactically correct ways of expressing any given idea. Some ways are better than others. They can be more arresting, more elegant, clearer in language, or more concise (to name a few possibilities). The exact choice could be better or worse depending on the circumstances. Good English for a report on local government finance would be bad English for a best man's speech at a wedding. Someone else pointed out there is a subtle difference between "speaking good English" and "speaking English well". If I were praising a non-native speaker, I would probably use the former, as I would be praising his ability to communicate, not the elegance (etc.) of his construction. Paul Burke >> I way always told English is either correct or incorrect, it can't be good >> or bad, well or ill. Of course, in the original expression, the English wouldn't be well, it would be the speaking of it (in other words, well is an adverb not an adjective here). I agree with other contributors that there is sometimes a difference of meaning, and that "I speak good English", though not modest, is perfectly grammatical and normal. Katy > Is it possible to speak good English badly or bad English well? On thinking about this, the second is certainly possible, particularly by a good character actor. Cheers Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org >> Is it possible to speak good English badly or bad English well? > > On thinking about this, the second is certainly possible, particularly > by a good character actor. Surely both for the thespian world. > > A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that 'I > > speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I speak [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Is it possible to speak good English badly or bad English well? I reckon that when Andrew Sachs as Manuel said "I speak English goood. I come from Barcelona" he was speaking bad English well. > > A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that 'I > > speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I speak [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ok, it's a subtle distinction. :-) I think you're right. The first in my view deals more with getting right the "mechanics" of the language, whereas the second clearly projects the ability to use "good" English in an elegant and "well"-constructed way. In that sense speaking good English is the (or a) prerequisite for speaking English well. Signaturecheers thomasl mail: thomas.lauer@virgin.net web : http://thomaslauer.com/start Tony Mountifield emailed this: >>A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that 'I >>speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I speak [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ok, it's a subtle distinction. :-) A subtle but important distinction and an argument winner. The pub disagreement proceeded on the basis that they were two phrases to communicate one idea, which they are not. Many thanks for pointing out the difference between the two. > Tony Mountifield emailed this: > >>A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated that 'I > >>speak good English' is actally not good English at all and that 'I speak > >>English well' is the correct way of saying it. Is she correct and, if so, why? > > To me, there is a slight difference of meaning between the two. > > In "I speak good English", "good" is an adjective denoting the quality of the > > English being spoken. > > In "I speak English well", "well" is an adverb denoting the skill of the > > speaker at speaking English. > > Ok, it's a subtle distinction. :-) > A subtle but important distinction and an argument winner. The pub > disagreement proceeded on the basis that they were two phrases to > communicate one idea, which they are not. Many thanks for pointing out the > difference between the two. But despite the grammatical difference and the theoretical difference in the thought expressed, the two statements are really conveying the same idea. The speaker is boasting of his or her ability to speak English as shown by the high quality of his or her speech. To a grammarian, the difference is significant; for the ordinary English user, there is no important difference. > > Tony Mountifield emailed this: > > > >>A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated > > >>that 'I speak good English' is actally not good English at all > > >>and that 'I speak English well' is the correct way of saying it. > > >>Is she correct and, if so, why? > > > To me, there is a slight difference of meaning between the two. > > > In "I speak good English", "good" is an adjective denoting the > > > quality of the English being spoken. > > > In "I speak English well", "well" is an adverb denoting the skill > > > of the speaker at speaking English. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > communicate one idea, which they are not. Many thanks for pointing > > out the difference between the two. > But despite the grammatical difference and the theoretical difference > in the thought expressed, the two statements are really conveying the > same idea. The speaker is boasting of his or her ability to speak > English as shown by the high quality of his or her speech. > To a grammarian, the difference is significant; for the ordinary > English user, there is no important difference. I would say that to an ordinary user of the USAmerican form of English there is no important difference (nor with "I speak English good", I suppose from viewing many foreign films) but there is certainly a difference to an ordianry user of English English. Can't say for Welsh English, etc. SignatureDavid - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/ > > > Tony Mountifield emailed this: > > > >>A Sunday pub lunch disagreement needs resolving. A friend stated > > > >>that 'I speak good English' is actally not good English at all > > > >>and that 'I speak English well' is the correct way of saying it. > > > >>Is she correct and, if so, why? > > > > To me, there is a slight difference of meaning between the two. > > > > In "I speak good English", "good" is an adjective denoting the > > > > quality of the English being spoken. > > > > In "I speak English well", "well" is an adverb denoting the skill > > > > of the speaker at speaking English. > > > > Ok, it's a subtle distinction. :-) > > > > A subtle but important distinction and an argument winner. The pub > > > disagreement proceeded on the basis that they were two phrases to > > > communicate one idea, which they are not. Many thanks for pointing > > > out the difference between the two. > > But despite the grammatical difference and the theoretical difference > > in the thought expressed, the two statements are really conveying the > > same idea. The speaker is boasting of his or her ability to speak > > English as shown by the high quality of his or her speech. > > To a grammarian, the difference is significant; for the ordinary > > English user, there is no important difference. > I would say that to an ordinary user of the USAmerican form of English > there is no important difference (nor with "I speak English good", I > suppose from viewing many foreign films) but there is certainly a > difference to an ordianry user of English English. Can't say for Welsh > English, etc. Can you really say that whether a person tells you "I speak English well" or "I speak good English", you're left with any impression but that the person feels that he or she is an able speaker of English? It's one thing to know that there's a theoretical difference between the two. It's another thing to ask yourself how the person feels about himself or herself as an English speaker and whether either statement is a better answer than the other to the question. The question is answered equally well by either of the two statements. (To put essentially the same thought another way, either of the two statements is a good answer to the question.) And neither of the two tells you anything else of significance. With either statement, the person has conveyed the information that he or she is satisfied with his or her ability to converse in English. He or she hasn't really conveyed more significant information than that with either statement, whether in English English or any other dialect of English. > Can you really say that whether a person tells you "I speak English > well" or "I speak good English", you're left with any impression but > that the person feels that he or she is an able speaker of English? [Snip] For all I know, the person making either of those statements knows no other English but, given that he does, the fact of him, say, stuttering (or even "stutterin'") might be some indication of whether his good, bad, or indifferent English is spoken well. SignatureDavid - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/ > With either statement, the person has conveyed the > information that he or she is satisfied with his or her > ability to converse in English. He or she hasn't really > conveyed more significant information than that with either > statement, whether in English English or any other dialect > of English. Not so. The person has *expressed the conviction* that he or she is satisfied with his or her ability to converse in English. But he or she has also conveyed information about how well or how poorly they speak English to the discerning listener, perhaps unwittingly. > Can you really say that whether a person tells you "I speak > English well" or "I speak good English", you're left with > any impression but that the person feels that he or she is > an able speaker of English? It's one thing to know that > there's a theoretical difference between the two. I think it's more than a theoretical difference. It's one of nuance, which is only sometimes relevant. For example somebody with a speech impediment might very properly say "I don't speak English well, but I do speak good English." -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus III web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. > > Can you really say that whether a person tells you "I speak > > English well" or "I speak good English", you're left with > > any impression but that the person feels that he or she is > > an able speaker of English? It's one thing to know that > > there's a theoretical difference between the two. > I think it's more than a theoretical difference. It's one of nuance, which > is only sometimes relevant. For example somebody with a speech impediment > might very properly say "I don't speak English well, but I do speak good > English." In the situation you postulate, the speaker would say "I don't speak well, but I do speak good English". If he or she says "I don't speak English well", that doesn't pertain to the quality of his or her speech, but to the quality of his or her English: good, bad, or somewhere in between. |
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