etymology - bananas as synonym for "crazy" - Balderdash and Piffle
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FCS - 15 May 2007 00:21 GMT Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
A co-presentation by popular poker pixie Victoria Coren featuring special-interest guest researcher Jo Brand who worked as a psychiatric nurse prior to tackling the rather less stressful environment of live stand-up comedy, the show sets itself the challenge of demonstrating holes in the etymologies provided by the Oxford University Press in the various editions of its Oxford English Dictionaries.
Tonight's travels through the world of dogmatic faux-amis and pre-computer-era resourced research results took in terms such as "moron", "cretin"*, "bonkers", "durbrain", and finally "bananas".
The panel of austere-looking experts in smart-casual clothing accepted some of the predated usages but still seemed set in a bubble of Albionic altruism where the question of usgaes having crept in from overseas was concerned--the most notable example of which was their etymology of "bananas".
The official line cited from Ivory Towers, when presented with a Gershwin number from 1938 which made use of the word as the second couplet for a rhyme was drearily sequential in its analysis and made no allowance for the time-honoured poetic poser of "but nothing rhymes with oranges!"
Oranges are known to grow quite nicely on the Eastern seabord' of North America and, indeed, the area's age- old Spanish cultures as evident in names such as "Los Angeles", "San Francisco", and "San Andreas" suggests that oranges would been one fruit they've been growing there for years.
How is this relevant? Well, a quick consultation of any reliable English-Spanish lexitome shows that to this day the Spanish word for "oranges" remains "naranjas". And, in all fairness, naranjas does kind of rhyme with bananas, albeit in a firmly Anglophone manner.
As such I move that their off-the-cuff and we-know-best account of the inclusion of the word "bananas" in the song at all - namely that it was chosen simply because it rhymes with "Polyannas" - is rather putting the cart before the horse and, indeed, the reverse is true.
Obviously this does not mean that they were "wrong" in the sense that "Gershwin chose it simply to fit a sense of meaning 'nonsense'", but nor is it suggestive they should give the matter no further consideration.
Sources to check would include Gershwin's diaries, and also traditional Carribean Krio/Patois usages as well as Merriam Webster and the contemporary music press--particularly given the archipelago's proximity to orange-growing regions and its traditional association with banana plantations in the age of the steamship.
As we now have "Polyanna" as the word which was chosen to fit the rhyme we can forget the plummy and rather twee values in the film of the same name and look for cues in contemporary American culture as to whether this was an established usage already.
As the song is a song about the states of mind which orbit love, "Polyannas" is used in a semi-derogative sense to imply naifete, and the states akin to madness associated with "love" were already well-documented, it suggests that they, perhaps, should feel free to be as dismissive as they like--at their peril.
G DAEB
* - entirely possibly literally what James Joyce meant.
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON -- ...and this is why I bother with copyright declarations.
John Briggs - 15 May 2007 00:37 GMT > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > it suggests that they, perhaps, should feel free to be > as dismissive as they like--at their peril. Which diaries, and which Gershwin?
 Signature John Briggs
Flying Tortoise - 15 May 2007 00:44 GMT > > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 > [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > Which diaries, and which Gershwin? > -- Oh, you're just teasing! Everybody knows about the famous Gershwin Diaries written by Samuel F. Gershwin from 1826 to half past six!
FCS - 15 May 2007 00:48 GMT > > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 > [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Ira, IIRC, whichever one wrote the lyrics out of George & Ira Gershwin combo.
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
John Briggs - 15 May 2007 01:02 GMT > Ira, IIRC, whichever one wrote the lyrics out of > George & Ira Gershwin combo. Yes, that would be Ira :-)
 Signature John Briggs
JNugent - 15 May 2007 09:25 GMT >>Ira, IIRC, whichever one wrote the lyrics out of >>George & Ira Gershwin combo. > > Yes, that would be Ira :-) Yes - but that was before he went on to found the para-military organisation named after him.
JNugent - 15 May 2007 09:24 GMT [ ... ]
[snipped for brevity]
>>Which diaries, and which Gershwin?
> Ira, IIRC, whichever one wrote the lyrics out of > George & Ira Gershwin combo. You mean you don't know (or at least, are not sure) which one wrote the music and which the lyrics?
Flying Tortoise - 15 May 2007 00:41 GMT > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > -- > ...and this is why I bother with copyright declarations. I wouldn't bother meself. Not likely that anyone's gonna want to nick anything from this drivel!
* - footnotes are entirely pointless if there is no corresponding indication of to what they refer!
FCS - 15 May 2007 00:47 GMT On May 15, 12:41 am, Flying Tortoise <purple....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > I wouldn't bother meself. I'm really not suggesting for a moment you should bother yourself.
> * - footnotes are entirely pointless if there is no corresponding > indication of to what they refer!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - <swipe> CTRL-C <scroll> CTRL-V
Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
</swipe>
referring to an edition of "The letters of James Joyce".
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
Peter Duncanson - 15 May 2007 20:02 GMT >> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>> Tonight's travels through the world of dogmatic faux-amis >> and pre-computer-era resourced research results took in >> terms such as "moron", "cretin"*, "bonkers", "durbrain", >> and finally "bananas".
>> * - entirely possibly literally what James Joyce meant.
>* - footnotes are entirely pointless if there is no corresponding >indication of to what they refer! There is. See the "cretin" above.
I had to use an editor to search the text for asterisks; the first is well hidden.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in uk.culture.language.english)
FCS - 15 May 2007 00:54 GMT > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > -- > ...and this is why I bother with copyright declarations. Supporting considerations are the phallic shape of the banana and the word's possible onomatopoeism for the practice of solo male masturbation.
This makes a chain link into the Shakespearan usage of "playing pricksong" in Romeo and Juliet, all the more of a reasonable consideration given its setting mirroring anti-miscegenistic views throughout human history.
It also nicely underscores the idea of "madness" as opposed to "nonsense"--especially with the traditional connotations of both the play and classical humours.
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
John Briggs - 15 May 2007 00:59 GMT > This makes a chain link into the Shakespearan usage > of "playing pricksong" in Romeo and Juliet, all the more > of a reasonable consideration given its setting mirroring > anti-miscegenistic views throughout human history. "Pricksong" is composed music - as opposed to "plainsong" or chant.
 Signature John Briggs
FCS - 15 May 2007 01:44 GMT > > This makes a chain link into the Shakespearan usage > > of "playing pricksong" in Romeo and Juliet, all the more [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- > John Briggs I'd read it as a rather more earthy term. Thanks for that. I gather it was love which was playing pricksong with him though will be re-reading it for the complete quote presently.
Otherwise I wasn't paying enough attention to which Gershwin it was but would suggest any diaries which may be extant as sources either for which journals/papers he took so that any contemporary discussion in feature columns of the "well nothing rhymes with oranges" issue would come to light soonest as well as records of any challenge set to find a rhyme by a rival or critic.
The etymology of bananas, however, is derived from their hand-like shape.
Had I gone back and checked the listings prior to posting I should've realised it was a repeat and that the dictionaries have most likely been updated some months now already. But as it was a new one on me I just sprang into action, as it were.
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
FCS - 15 May 2007 01:49 GMT > > > This makes a chain link into the Shakespearan usage > > > of "playing pricksong" in Romeo and Juliet, all the more [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON > -- Then again, looking back to previous postings on the topic it was broadcast for the first time all of last friday ago.
I'd no idea it was Josephine Baker who presented it. They screwed up the credits too by the look of it.
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
FCS - 15 May 2007 02:43 GMT > > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 > [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Actually, regardless whether the naranjas (aspirated j, think Jose, Me & Julio, down in the schoolyard &c.) hypothesis holds any water, Act 1 Scene 2 offers forth the following on the matter:
BENVOLIO: Turn giddy, and be holp by backward turning: One desperate grief, cures with another's languish: Take thou some new infection to thy eye, and the rank poison of the old will die. ROMEO: Your plantain-leaf is excellent for that. BENVOLIO: For what? I pray thee. ROMEO: For your broken shin. BENVOLIO: Why Romeo, art thou mad?
excerpted from Romeo and Juliet by William Shayspear Act 1 Scene 2.
This rather suggests that the OED team did put the cart before the horse somewhat, in the interests of seeming knowledgably dismissive, as I interpret it, rather than lexicographically correct.
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
FCS - 16 May 2007 04:50 GMT > > > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 > [quoted text clipped - 125 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Then again, on further consideration, the on Polly<-->Poly in terms of "Polly-Annas" only really works if both "naranjas" and "bananas" are being referred to.
Going aside a moment, whilst I'm sure I've enjoyed Gershwin Bros.' material before I'd no idea it was written so well.
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
Einde O'Callaghan - 15 May 2007 13:51 GMT FCS schrieb:
> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 <snip>
> Oranges are known to grow quite nicely on the Eastern > seabord' of North America and, indeed, the area's age- > old Spanish cultures as evident in names such as "Los > Angeles", "San Francisco", and "San Andreas" suggests > that oranges would been one fruit they've been growing > there for years. I always understood that Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Andreas etc. were in California, which is on the WESTERN seaboard of North America. Of course, Florida, which is on the Eastern seaboard, also has a historic connection with Spain and with citrus fruit.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Flying Tortoise - 15 May 2007 16:22 GMT On May 15, 1:51 pm, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallag...@planet- interkom.de> wrote:
> FCS schrieb:> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Regards, Einde O'Callaghan Oh come on. Like he's going to waste time on facts!
For the record, the high and mighty OED staff dismissed the the aforementioned reference because it wasn't even vaguely reminiscent of the usage which they were investigating. The phrase they were interested in was 'going bananas'. The song included the entirely different usage 'it's all bananas' which the three wise persons promised to investigate separately. But, as I said, facts - who needs 'em?
FCS - 16 May 2007 05:00 GMT > On May 15, 1:51 pm, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallag...@planet- > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > - Show quoted text - "Going Bananas" implies an end state of "being bananas" which will be reached. They also did accept the stand-alone meaning of "bonkers" which was derived from a similar construction and usage "going bonkers".
I shall look out for further repeats but got the impression it was pretty much closed. I still hold they put the cart before the horse in terms of what drove the rhyme and gave no indication they were going to look at it from any other perspective.
If so, there's quite a strong possibility they'll waste a lot of time looking into it further from an obfuscated starting point.
If you aren't a linguistician you ought to know it's a pursuit that is open to new perspectives in a way that physical sciences often aren't, except at the crazier relativistic/quantum ends of the scale, although philology, which is what etymology/lexicography is based on is perhaps slightly more resistant to change than other branches.
Some of the dialect philology we have to refer to here in this area, for example, is accepted amongst armchair scholars but, linguistically, is the equivalent of the view that the auricles pump the blood whilst the ventricles circulate the spirit--late C19th views on racial supremacy being quite a strong influence.
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
FCS - 16 May 2007 05:39 GMT > On May 15, 1:51 pm, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallag...@planet- > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Firstly, the only reference to looking into it I remember was when they first discovered it, at which point this was a thirty-odd-year ante-date, back to 1938; this was reported by the presented rather than delivered by the panel themsleves. When the council delivered their verdict it was dismissive.
That is, I believe, akin to a point of order.
Secondly the usage including the gerundive copula "going-" was IIRC "going bonkers" rather than "going bananas". All the show was interested in was the connotations of the final adverbial--i.e., that someone can be described as "bonkers" or "bananas" or "mad" or "cretinous".
We can be reasonably sure it wasn't wasted on James Joyce that "syncretism" is a term with something of a pedigree, despite most movements in religious thought have been geared up diacretism in some form or another.
In short, what I'm saying is it actually is the usage they were investigating and because they started off from a seriously flawed and academically indefensible assumption over what was chosen to rhyme with what they missed the point it does mean exactly what the show's presenters found it to mean.
I shall be watching any repeats for any mention of them looking into it further. But I thought the point was that they had and the matter was pretty much closed.
Thus they are most probably wrong.
As far as facts go, I wasn't aware I'd deviated from any requirement to stick to them except when I got my East and West mixed up in terms of the location of California, which has both been pointed out and acknowledged.
Did you make a referenceable artefact of the broadcast? If so, will you be posting the relevant snippet on YouTube or some other such forum in order to underline your assertion with acuality?
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
FCS - 16 May 2007 04:51 GMT On May 15, 1:51 pm, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallag...@planet- interkom.de> wrote:
> FCS schrieb:> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50 > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Regards, Einde O'Callaghan Yes you are right.
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
FCS - 16 May 2007 12:05 GMT > On May 15, 1:51 pm, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallag...@planet- > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thanks for that. At the risk of appearing tedious I had got my compass points mixed up. But it's too much for a language newsgroup I suppose to express orientation in terms of degrees, minutes and seconds; not to mention it hadn't occurred to me to ;?).
Otherwise, anybody got a clearer idea of where Cuba was at during the late 1930s than I have?
Obviously it was a pre-Castro era but in terms of its known influence on popular music and/or the Gershwins?
Were Cuba Spanish-speaking?
Any Picasso connection? either with Cuba or Gershwin?
G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON --
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