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etymology - bananas as synonym for "crazy" - Balderdash and Piffle

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FCS - 15 May 2007 00:21 GMT
Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50

A co-presentation by popular poker pixie Victoria Coren
featuring special-interest guest researcher Jo Brand who
worked as a psychiatric nurse prior to tackling the rather
less stressful environment of live stand-up comedy, the
show sets itself the challenge of demonstrating holes in
the etymologies provided by the Oxford University Press
in the various editions of its Oxford English Dictionaries.

Tonight's travels through the world of dogmatic faux-amis
and pre-computer-era resourced research results took in
terms such as "moron", "cretin"*, "bonkers", "durbrain",
and finally "bananas".

The panel of austere-looking experts in smart-casual
clothing accepted some of the predated usages but
still seemed set in a bubble of Albionic altruism where
the question of usgaes having crept in from overseas
was concerned--the most notable example of which
was their etymology of "bananas".

The official line cited from Ivory Towers, when presented
with a Gershwin number from 1938 which made use of
the word as the second couplet for a rhyme was drearily
sequential in its analysis and made no allowance for the
time-honoured poetic poser of "but nothing rhymes with
oranges!"

Oranges are known to grow quite nicely on the Eastern
seabord' of North America and, indeed, the area's age-
old Spanish cultures as evident in names such as "Los
Angeles", "San Francisco", and "San Andreas" suggests
that oranges would been one fruit they've been growing
there for years.

How is this relevant? Well, a quick consultation of any
reliable English-Spanish lexitome shows that to this
day the Spanish word for "oranges" remains "naranjas".
And, in all fairness, naranjas does kind of rhyme with
bananas, albeit in a firmly Anglophone manner.

As such I move that their off-the-cuff and we-know-best
account of the inclusion of the word "bananas" in the
song at all - namely that it was chosen simply because
it rhymes with "Polyannas" - is rather putting the cart
before the horse and, indeed, the reverse is true.

Obviously this does not mean that they were "wrong"
in the sense that "Gershwin chose it simply to fit a
sense of meaning 'nonsense'", but nor is it suggestive
they should give the matter no further consideration.

Sources to check would include Gershwin's diaries,
and also traditional Carribean Krio/Patois usages as
well as Merriam Webster and the contemporary music
press--particularly given the archipelago's proximity
to orange-growing regions and its traditional association
with banana plantations in the age of the steamship.

As we now have "Polyanna" as the word which was
chosen to fit the rhyme we can forget the plummy and
rather twee values in the film of the same name and
look for cues in contemporary American culture as
to whether this was an established usage already.

As the song is a song about the states of mind which
orbit love, "Polyannas" is used in a semi-derogative
sense to imply naifete, and the states akin to madness
associated with "love" were already well-documented,
it suggests that they, perhaps, should feel free to be
as dismissive as they like--at their peril.

G DAEB

* - entirely possibly literally what James Joyce meant.

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
...and this is why I bother with copyright declarations.
John Briggs - 15 May 2007 00:37 GMT
> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
> it suggests that they, perhaps, should feel free to be
> as dismissive as they like--at their peril.

Which diaries, and which Gershwin?
Signature

John Briggs

Flying Tortoise - 15 May 2007 00:44 GMT
> > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> Which diaries, and which Gershwin?
> --

Oh, you're just teasing! Everybody knows about the famous Gershwin
Diaries written by Samuel F. Gershwin from 1826 to half past six!
FCS - 15 May 2007 00:48 GMT
> > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ira, IIRC, whichever one wrote the lyrics out of
George & Ira Gershwin combo.

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
John Briggs - 15 May 2007 01:02 GMT
> Ira, IIRC, whichever one wrote the lyrics out of
> George & Ira Gershwin combo.

Yes, that would be Ira :-)
Signature

John Briggs

JNugent - 15 May 2007 09:25 GMT
>>Ira, IIRC, whichever one wrote the lyrics out of
>>George & Ira Gershwin combo.
>
> Yes, that would be Ira :-)

Yes - but that was before he went on to found the para-military
organisation named after him.
JNugent - 15 May 2007 09:24 GMT
[ ... ]

[snipped for brevity]

>>Which diaries, and which Gershwin?

> Ira, IIRC, whichever one wrote the lyrics out of
> George & Ira Gershwin combo.

You mean you don't know (or at least, are not sure) which one wrote
the music and which the lyrics?
Flying Tortoise - 15 May 2007 00:41 GMT
> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> --
> ...and this is why I bother with copyright declarations.

I wouldn't bother meself. Not likely that anyone's gonna want to nick
anything from this drivel!

* - footnotes are entirely pointless if there is no corresponding
indication of to what they refer!
FCS - 15 May 2007 00:47 GMT
On May 15, 12:41 am, Flying Tortoise <purple....@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>
> I wouldn't bother meself.

I'm really not suggesting for a moment
you should bother yourself.

> * - footnotes are entirely pointless if there is no corresponding
> indication of to what they refer!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

<swipe> CTRL-C <scroll> CTRL-V

Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50

</swipe>

referring to an edition of "The letters of James Joyce".

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
Peter Duncanson - 15 May 2007 20:02 GMT
>> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50

>> Tonight's travels through the world of dogmatic faux-amis
>> and pre-computer-era resourced research results took in
>> terms such as "moron", "cretin"*, "bonkers", "durbrain",
>> and finally "bananas".

>> * - entirely possibly literally what James Joyce meant.

>* - footnotes are entirely pointless if there is no corresponding
>indication of to what they refer!

There is. See the "cretin" above.

I had to use an editor to search the text for asterisks; the first
is well hidden.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in uk.culture.language.english)

FCS - 15 May 2007 00:54 GMT
> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> --
> ...and this is why I bother with copyright declarations.

Supporting considerations are the phallic shape of the banana
and the word's possible onomatopoeism for the practice of solo
male masturbation.

This makes a chain link into the Shakespearan usage
of "playing pricksong" in Romeo and Juliet, all the more
of a reasonable consideration given its setting mirroring
anti-miscegenistic views throughout human history.

It also nicely underscores the idea of "madness" as opposed
to "nonsense"--especially with the traditional connotations
of both the play and classical humours.

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
John Briggs - 15 May 2007 00:59 GMT
> This makes a chain link into the Shakespearan usage
> of "playing pricksong" in Romeo and Juliet, all the more
> of a reasonable consideration given its setting mirroring
> anti-miscegenistic views throughout human history.

"Pricksong" is composed music - as opposed to "plainsong" or chant.
Signature

John Briggs

FCS - 15 May 2007 01:44 GMT
> > This makes a chain link into the Shakespearan usage
> > of "playing pricksong" in Romeo and Juliet, all the more
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> --
> John Briggs

I'd read it as a rather more earthy term. Thanks
for that. I gather it was love which was playing
pricksong with him though will be re-reading it
for the complete quote presently.

Otherwise I wasn't paying enough attention to
which Gershwin it was but would suggest any
diaries which may be extant as sources either
for which journals/papers he took so that any
contemporary discussion in feature columns of
the "well nothing rhymes with oranges" issue
would come to light soonest as well as records
of any challenge set to find a rhyme by a rival or
critic.

The etymology of bananas, however, is derived
from their hand-like shape.

Had I gone back and checked the listings prior
to posting I should've realised it was a repeat
and that the dictionaries have most likely been
updated some months now already. But as it
was a new one on me I just sprang into action,
as it were.

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
FCS - 15 May 2007 01:49 GMT
> > > This makes a chain link into the Shakespearan usage
> > > of "playing pricksong" in Romeo and Juliet, all the more
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
> --

Then again, looking back to previous postings on
the topic it was broadcast for the first time all of
last friday ago.

I'd no idea it was Josephine Baker who presented
it. They screwed up the credits too by the look of
it.

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
FCS - 15 May 2007 02:43 GMT
> > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>
[quoted text clipped - 96 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Actually, regardless whether the naranjas (aspirated j,
think Jose, Me & Julio, down in the schoolyard &c.)
hypothesis holds any water, Act 1 Scene 2 offers
forth the following on the matter:

BENVOLIO: Turn giddy, and be holp by backward turning:
        One desperate grief, cures with another's languish:
        Take thou some new infection to thy eye,
        and the rank poison of the old will die.
ROMEO: Your plantain-leaf is excellent for that.
BENVOLIO: For what? I pray thee.
ROMEO: For your broken shin.
BENVOLIO: Why Romeo, art thou mad?

excerpted from Romeo and Juliet by William Shayspear
Act 1 Scene 2.

This rather suggests that the OED team did put the cart
before the horse somewhat, in the interests of seeming
knowledgably dismissive, as I interpret it, rather than
lexicographically correct.

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
FCS - 16 May 2007 04:50 GMT
> > > Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>
[quoted text clipped - 125 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Then again, on further consideration, the on
Polly<-->Poly in terms of "Polly-Annas" only
really works if both "naranjas" and "bananas"
are being referred to.

Going aside a moment, whilst I'm sure I've
enjoyed Gershwin Bros.' material before I'd
no idea it was written so well.

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
Einde O'Callaghan - 15 May 2007 13:51 GMT
FCS schrieb:
> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50

<snip>

> Oranges are known to grow quite nicely on the Eastern
> seabord' of North America and, indeed, the area's age-
> old Spanish cultures as evident in names such as "Los
> Angeles", "San Francisco", and "San Andreas" suggests
> that oranges would been one fruit they've been growing
> there for years.

I always understood that Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Andreas etc.
were in California, which is on the WESTERN  seaboard of North America.
Of course, Florida, which is on the Eastern seaboard, also has a
historic connection with Spain and with citrus fruit.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Flying Tortoise - 15 May 2007 16:22 GMT
On May 15, 1:51 pm, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallag...@planet-
interkom.de> wrote:
> FCS schrieb:> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Oh come on. Like he's going to waste time on facts!

For the record, the high and mighty OED staff dismissed the the
aforementioned reference because it wasn't even vaguely reminiscent of
the usage which they were investigating. The phrase they were
interested in was 'going bananas'. The song included the entirely
different usage 'it's all bananas' which the three wise persons
promised to investigate separately. But, as I said, facts - who needs
'em?
FCS - 16 May 2007 05:00 GMT
> On May 15, 1:51 pm, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallag...@planet-
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

"Going Bananas" implies an end state of "being
bananas" which will be reached. They also did
accept the stand-alone meaning of "bonkers"
which was derived from a similar construction
and usage "going bonkers".

I shall look out for further repeats but got the
impression it was pretty much closed. I still
hold they put the cart before the horse in terms
of what drove the rhyme and gave no indication
they were going to look at it from any other
perspective.

If so, there's quite a strong possibility they'll
waste a lot of time looking into it further from
an obfuscated starting point.

If you aren't a linguistician you ought to know
it's a pursuit that is open to new perspectives
in a way that physical sciences often aren't,
except at the crazier relativistic/quantum ends
of the scale, although philology, which is what
etymology/lexicography is based on is perhaps
slightly more resistant to change than other
branches.

Some of the dialect philology we have to refer
to here in this area, for example, is accepted
amongst armchair scholars but, linguistically,
is the equivalent of the view that the auricles
pump the blood whilst the ventricles circulate
the spirit--late C19th views on racial supremacy
being quite a strong influence.

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
FCS - 16 May 2007 05:39 GMT
> On May 15, 1:51 pm, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallag...@planet-
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Firstly, the only reference to looking into it
I remember was when they first discovered
it, at which point this was a thirty-odd-year
ante-date, back to 1938; this was reported
by the presented rather than delivered by the
panel themsleves. When the council delivered
their verdict it was dismissive.

That is, I believe, akin to a point of order.

Secondly the usage including the gerundive
copula "going-" was IIRC "going bonkers"
rather than "going bananas". All the show was
interested in was the connotations of the
final adverbial--i.e., that someone can be
described as "bonkers" or "bananas" or
"mad" or "cretinous".

We can be reasonably sure it wasn't wasted
on James Joyce that "syncretism" is a term
with something of a pedigree, despite most
movements in religious thought have been
geared up diacretism in some form or another.

In short, what I'm saying is it actually is the
usage they were investigating and because
they started off from a seriously flawed and
academically indefensible assumption over
what was chosen to rhyme with what they
missed the point it does mean exactly what
the show's presenters found it to mean.

I shall be watching any repeats for any mention
of them looking into it further. But I thought the
point was that they had and the matter was pretty
much closed.

Thus they are most probably wrong.

As far as facts go, I wasn't aware I'd deviated
from any requirement to stick to them except
when I got my East and West mixed up in
terms of the location of California, which has
both been pointed out and acknowledged.

Did you make a referenceable artefact of the
broadcast? If so, will you be posting the relevant
snippet on YouTube or some other such forum
in order to underline your assertion with acuality?

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
FCS - 16 May 2007 04:51 GMT
On May 15, 1:51 pm, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallag...@planet-
interkom.de> wrote:
> FCS schrieb:> Balderdash and Piffle, BBC2 14 MAY 2007 23:20-23:50
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Yes you are right.

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
--
FCS - 16 May 2007 12:05 GMT
> On May 15, 1:51 pm, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallag...@planet-
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for that. At the risk of appearing tedious
I had got my compass points mixed up. But it's
too much for a language newsgroup I suppose to
express orientation in terms of degrees, minutes
and seconds; not to mention it hadn't occurred to
me to  ;?).

Otherwise, anybody got a clearer idea of where
Cuba was at during the late 1930s than I have?

Obviously it was a pre-Castro era but in terms
of its known influence on popular music and/or
the Gershwins?

Were Cuba Spanish-speaking?

Any Picasso connection? either with Cuba or
Gershwin?

G DAEB

COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON
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