Standard RP pronunciation of "often"?

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zhengquan - 31 May 2007 06:15 GMT

Hi:
Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?

Thanks!

Zhegnquan

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Richard Polhill - 31 May 2007 08:25 GMT

> Hi:
> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's background according to that?
>
> Thanks!

No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too
hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

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Mike Stevens - 31 May 2007 09:29 GMT

>> Hi:
>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think "often" (with the t pronounced) and
"offen" are equally acceptable in RP. My wife thinks that perhaps educated
Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do
educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation. This occurs in two contexts.

One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early
years of her reign, and still in some members of her family. It was
satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of
dialogue based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

The other, possibly now obsolete - I remember it being used by my
Grandmother (born c.1890) - was used by the aspiring working-class (in
London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common
upper-middle class usage.

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Richard Polhill - 31 May 2007 09:32 GMT

>>> Hi:
>>> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Scots and Irish people tend more to the "offen" pronunciation than do
> educated English or Welsh people, but I've not noticed that.

That's because the Scots still like to educate their schoolchildren, unlike in
England. ;-)

> Then there's the "awfen" pronunciation. This occurs in two contexts.
>
> One is an extreme upper-class hyperlect as seen in the Queen in the early
> years of her reign, and still in some members of her family. It was
> satirised by WS Gilbert in "Pirates of Penzance" with an extended piece of
> dialogue based on confusion between the words "often" and "orphan".

Which, of course, is not RP.

> The other, possibly now obsolete - I remember it being used by my
> Grandmother (born c.1890) - was used by the aspiring working-class (in
> London to my knowledge, possibly elsewhere) to copy what was then a common
> upper-middle class usage.

See above.

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Tony Mountifield - 31 May 2007 09:44 GMT

> > Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> > something about the speaker's background according to that?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

I usually pronounce "often" with the t, and don't fit any of those supposed
categories. I grew up in Gosport, Hampshire, and am almost 50.

Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine" and "clothes".
My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them as "medis'n"
and "clothes" (with the dh sound).

Cheers
Tony

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Molly Mockford - 01 Jun 2007 08:50 GMT

At 08:44:34 on Thu, 31 May 2007, Tony Mountifield
<tony@softins.clara.co.uk> wrote in <f3m1ti$8n1$1@softins.clara.co.uk>:

>I usually pronounce "often" with the t, and don't fit any of those supposed
>categories. I grew up in Gosport, Hampshire, and am almost 50.

I also pronounce the T (well, I often do...). I grew up in an
uppper-middle-class family in Edinburgh in the 1950s.

>Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine" and
>"clothes".
>My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them as "medis'n"
>and "clothes" (with the dh sound).

I'm with you on that. I also pronounce the first N in "government", the
first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament" (instead of
"parlyment". On the other hand, I happily say "Wedensday" instead of
"Wednesday".

I've done this all my life, so it's nothing to do with fashions amongst
TV presenters.

Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!

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Mike Stevens - 01 Jun 2007 09:06 GMT

>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
>> and "clothes".
>> My wife pronounces them "meds'n" and "close", but I pronounce them
>> as "medis'n" and "clothes" (with the dh sound).

Nowadays I tend to say "medication" rather than "medicine" (media influence,
I quess).

> I'm with you on that. I also pronounce the first N in "government",
> the first R in "February" and both the I and A in "parliament"
> (instead of "parlyment".

I do both of these.

> On the other hand, I happily say
> "Wedensday" instead of "Wednesday".

I'm afraid I say "Wensdy" - probably my London ancestry coming through.

> Wouldn't it be boring if we all spoke precisely the same!

Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings! :-)

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Richard Polhill - 01 Jun 2007 09:33 GMT

>>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
>>> and "clothes".
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Almost as boring as if we all used the same spellings! :-)

The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?

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Mike Stevens - 01 Jun 2007 10:26 GMT

>>>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
>>>> and "clothes".
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?

I'm not convinced that RP is a single standard, nor that all elocutionists
teach the same pronunciations. I consider myself to be a speaker of (one
version of) RP.

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zhengquan - 01 Jun 2007 13:18 GMT

On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
<richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:

> >>> Other words that spring to mind with similar issues are "medicine"
> >>> and "clothes".
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> The question is not what do you say, but what is RP. That is, if one took
> elocution lessons, what pronunciation would be taught?

I agree with this point.

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eric@compellingconversations.com - 12 Jun 2007 14:39 GMT

As American, I found this discussion quite informative. Thank you.

> On Jun 1, 4:33 pm, Richard Polhill
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> I agree with this point.

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miranka - 31 May 2007 10:00 GMT

> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
> I think you may be able to infer that the speaker is over-cautious, trying too
> hard to pronounce "correctly"; probably somebody who has tried to lose a
> regional accent or traces of what they perceive to be a background of
> lower-social-standing. Alternatively they may not be a native English speaker.

Funny. In all the listening material that comes with Longman's English
course "Friends" (for kids 9-13), you can only hear ofTen. You'd think books
for foreign learners should stick to the most popular or recommended
pronunciation. From what you are saying here ofTen is neither popular nor
recommended, but nevertheless soon you'll have half the world pronouncing
the word WITH a 't'.
It seems I'm an old-fashioned teacher who just can't get used to some
changes... ofTen is one of them:)
Anna (from Poland)

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Richard Polhill - 31 May 2007 10:10 GMT

>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> changes... ofTen is one of them:)
> Anna (from Poland)

Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with "offen"
being listed first.

Our pronunciation in Britain has historically preferred contraction, a
preference that appears to be waning, possibly due to the effects of
globalization.

I still maintain that we do not correctly pronounce every letter in a word
although the weight of common usage is tipping the scales toward what would
once have been the mark of poor education.

It seems the current evolution of the language is to pronounce every letter
and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose
silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

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zhengquan - 31 May 2007 10:39 GMT

On May 31, 5:10 pm, Richard Polhill
<richard.n...@polhill.vispa.invalid> wrote:

> >> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> and syllable. I suspect the trend will continue along with the trend to lose
> silent endings so that our spelling and pronunciation converge.

It *is* interesting, I will see how Charlotte Green pronounces that,
can I say her pronunciation is the most standard among all the BBC R4
presenters?

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Blue Sow - 01 Jun 2007 10:12 GMT

>>> No. RP would pronounce it without the T.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Well I am being unnecessarily harsh. Both are listed by the OED, with
> "offen" being listed first.

OED on-line suggests that the 't' is optional in the first choice but omits the
final vowel, and second choice is to sound the t and make the final vowel a schwa.

Brit. /of(t)n/, /oftən/

While I normally say the second option, I am trying, and failing, to say the
word with no final vowel (but always sounding the 't').

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Paul Burke - 31 May 2007 08:28 GMT

> Is "often" pronounced with the t sound standard in RP? Can I infer
> something about the speaker's backgroud according to that?

Good question. It's something that has changed in my lifetme. The usual
pronunciation was "offen", but I started noticing the T creep in on
radio and television about the mid 1990s. Similarly, "Wensday" (for
Wednesday) has become "Weddensday" over the same period. I suspect that
the ultimate cause is media types reading from autocues, and the rest of
the population following what they hear.

Paul Burke

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Discussion Groups / British English / June 2007

Standard RP pronunciation of "often"?