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Discussion Groups / British English / August 2007agony column...
Thanks for you guys, especially John Ramsay, Leszek L., Einde O'Callaghan around news groups, I had translated an english nevel to ours, and tossed to a publisher. Again, I started a rather short novel (same author), and I got a some headache sentences. Background is London, 1914. A newspaper named 'Mail' have their own column knowned as 'agony column'. About that column the writer tells like this, --------- Tragedy and comedy mingle in the Agony Column. Erring ones are urged to return for forgiveness; unwelcome suitors are warned that "Father has warrant prepared; fly, Dearest One!" Loves that would shame by their ardor Abelard and Heloise are frankly published--at ten cents a word--for all the town to smile at. The gentleman in the brown derby states with fervor that the blonde governess who got off the tram at Shepherd's Bush has quite won his heart. Will she permit his addresses? Answer; this department. For three weeks West had found this sort of thing delicious reading. Best of all, he could detect in these messages nothing that was not open and innocent. At their worst they were merely an effort to side-step old Lady Convention; this inclination was so rare in the British, he felt it should be encouraged. Besides, he was inordinately fond of mystery and romance, and these engaging twins hovered always about that column. --------- From 'Best of all, he could...' to 'old Lady Convention', I coundn't figure out what it means. 'old Lady Convention'? What on earth! And one request of the column as... --- WATERLOO: Wed. 11:53 train. Lady who left in taxi and waved, care to know gent, gray coat? --SINCERE. --- What a short, quite abrupt sentence... I can understand some rather dignified request, but this seems to me too short, and ungrammatical one. If you help me again, I will very appriciate you guys. Donghoon... > Best of > all, he could detect in these messages nothing that was not open > and innocent. At their worst they were merely an effort to > side-step old Lady Convention; --------- > From 'Best of all, he could...' to 'old Lady Convention', I coundn't figure > out what it means. 'old Lady Convention'? What on earth! You really need to research the social atmosphere of Britain in the period before the First World War. For most people- all but the very poor, the very rich, and those with the means to support a "Bohemian" lifestyle- respectability was crucially important. West is pleased that the messages did not offend against public mores. He is also pleased that some messages attempted to short- circuit some of the rules, such as the convention requiring that a man must not communicate with a lady unless they have been formally introduced. West would appear to be American- "published--at ten cents a word". Remember that the British currency was then pounds, shillings and pence. > --- > WATERLOO: Wed. 11:53 train. Lady who left in taxi and waved, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What a short, quite abrupt sentence... I can understand some rather > dignified request, but this seems to me too short, and ungrammatical one. Again "ten cents a word" is the important phrase. Look up "telegraphese", which is governed by the same cost constraints. The sentence would possibly be rendered into English as "Would the lady who left the 11:53 train at Waterloo on Wednesday, and waved*, care to be formally acquainted with the gentleman who was wearing the greay coat?" (Again the pelling "gray" identifies West as an American.) SINCERE is the gent's pseudonym. Paul Burke * Almost certainly NOT to the gent in the grey coat. >> Best of >> all, he could detect in these messages nothing that was not open [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > greay coat?" (Again the pelling "gray" identifies West as an > American.) SINCERE is the gent's pseudonym. No, it identifies the author (or more likely the publisher) as American. Note "brown derby" - would you wear a brown bowler?  SignatureJohn Briggs > A newspaper named 'Mail' have their own column knowned as 'agony > column'. About that column the writer tells like this, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > inordinately fond of mystery and romance, and these engaging twins > hovered always about that column. Is this actually an English novel or an American one? There's lots of internal evidence that it's left-pondian. > --------- > From 'Best of all, he could...' to 'old Lady Convention', I coundn't > figure out what it means. 'old Lady Convention'? What on earth! "'Old Lady Covention" is a personification of the accepted beahavrioural norms. What "he" is saying is that the entries in the column seem to him to be very natural and not confined to the conventional modes and customs. > And one request of the column as... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > dignified request, but this seems to me too short, and ungrammatical > one. Remember that people who submot entries to the column are reported as paying ten cents a word, hence the abrupt phrasing. SignatureMike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus III web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Defend the waterways. Visit the web site www.saveourwaterways.org.uk Han Donghoon schrieb: As others have commented the novel seems to have been written by an American, which wo09uld fit if it's the same author as the last novel. > WATERLOO: Wed. 11:53 train. Lady who left in taxi and waved, > care to know gent, gray coat? --SINCERE. > > --- > What a short, quite abrupt sentence... I can understand some rather > dignified request, but this seems to me too short, and ungrammatical one. The syntax looks like that of a small ad, in this case a contact ad, rather like those found in some papers even today where people try to find a partner. In this case it is an appeal to a lady who arrived in Waterloo Station on the 11:53 train and got into a taxi. Apparently she waved at the the man who placed the ad. He was wearing a "gray" coat (this spelling is a clear sign that the book is of American origin - in British English the spelling is "grey"). He wishes to know if she would like to contact him. He emphasises that he is genuinely interested in getting to know her and that he has no improper intentions, e.g. sex before marriage, which at that time was morally unacceptable. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan At 10:00:24 on Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Einde O'Callaghan <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote in <5dpgm2F34ur78U1@mid.individual.net>: >He was wearing a "gray" coat (this spelling is a clear sign that the >book is of American origin - in British English the spelling is "grey"). In English English, it is "grey". In Scots, it is "gray". (I do, however, concur that this particular piece of writing bears all the signs of US English.) SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) Molly Mockford wrote in uk.culture.language.english about: Re: agony column... > At 10:00:24 on Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Einde O'Callaghan > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > however, concur that this particular piece of writing bears all the > signs of US English.) Interesting, I never knew that, and have therefore always spelled said colour as "grey"[1]! Do you have a citation for that? But then, most Scots words that I have acquired have been transmitted orally/aurally (ie, somebody said them and I heard them ;-) rather than in writing, as is I suspect the case for most of us, hence the numerous variant spellings of Scots words that you often see. David. [1] Well, apart from in HTML, etc.. ;-) SignatureDavid M. -- Edinburgh, Scotland. --[en,fr,(de) <-- corrections welcome] *Please remove quotes not needed for context and interleave reply text* *No-context, excess-quoted, slug-trailed, zero-content posts filtered.* At 21:39:33 on Tue, 14 Aug 2007, David M <david@bogus.domain.dom.invalid> wrote in <slrnfc44o4.75d.david@pepper.local.lan>: >Molly Mockford wrote in uk.culture.language.english >> In English English, it is "grey". In Scots, it is "gray". >Interesting, I never knew that, and have therefore always spelled said >colour as "grey"[1]! Do you have a citation for that? Scots-English / English-Scots Dictionary, Lomond Books (1998 / 2001), ISBN 0-947782-26-5. The word is (unlike some) included in both sections, from one spelling to the other and back again. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >> Molly Mockford wrote in uk.culture.language.english > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ISBN 0-947782-26-5. The word is (unlike some) included in both > sections, from one spelling to the other and back again. 1998 sounds very 'late' for a citation for a cultural spelling variation, particularly in light of recent nationalistic attempts to remanufacture Scots and Northern Irish dialects as independent languages. I'd like to see evidence of a consistent difference between Scots and English from the later 18th C (when the English spelling probably standardised) to the 20th. There was the cavalry regiment, the 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Grays), but I've always understood that in that context 'gray' is an equestrian technical term for a particular colour of horse. Paul Burke >>> Molly Mockford wrote in uk.culture.language.english >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > in that context 'gray' is an equestrian technical term for a > particular colour of horse. Except that it was the Royal Scots Greys - previously the Royal North British Dragoons (but that's another story!) SignatureJohn Briggs At 08:02:42 on Wed, 15 Aug 2007, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote in <5ifmvsF3p84tvU1@mid.individual.net>: >>> Molly Mockford wrote in uk.culture.language.english >> >>>> In English English, it is "grey". In Scots, it is "gray". >> Scots-English / English-Scots Dictionary, Lomond Books (1998 / >>2001), ISBN 0-947782-26-5. The word is (unlike some) included in >>both sections, from one spelling to the other and back again. >1998 sounds very 'late' for a citation for a cultural spelling >variation It's not the date of a citation - it's the publication date of the dictionary (first published 1998, reprinted 2001), as I would have hoped would be clear from the context. It's just a wee pocket dictionary, with no etymological detail at all; but it firmly draws a distinction between gray and grey. I don't own a super-duper all-singing all-dancing Scots dictionary - although I would love to. >I'd like to see evidence of a consistent difference between Scots and >English from the later 18th C (when the English spelling probably >standardised) to the 20th. So would I - but there would always have been people who used the English variant of any word because they have been led to believe it was "correct", although the Scots spelling was in perfectly common use at the time. So it's probable that both versions would be found in different sources over the identical period. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > Molly Mockford wrote in uk.culture.language.english > about: Re: agony column... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> however, concur that this particular piece of writing bears all the >> signs of US English.) Chambers 21st Century disagrees: gray1 noun (symbol Gy) the SI unit of absorbed dose of ionizing radiation, equivalent to one joule per kilogram. ETYMOLOGY: 1970s: named after L H Gray (1905-65), British radiobiologist. grey or (especially N Amer) gray adj (greyer, greyest) 1 of a colour between black and white, the colour of ash and slate. 2 said of the weather: dull and cloudy. 3 a said of a someone's hair: turning white; b said of a person: having grey hair. 4 derog anonymous or uninteresting; having no distinguishing features • a grey character. 5 literary aged, mature or experienced. 6 colloq referring or relating to elderly or retired people • the grey population. noun (greys) 1 a colour between black and white. 2 grey material or clothes • dressed in grey. 3 dull light. 4 an animal, especially a horse, that is grey or whitish in colour. verb (greyed, greying) tr & intr to make or become grey. greyish adj. greyly adverb. greyness noun. ETYMOLOGY: Anglo-Saxon grei. Yes, as Einde wrote, the author is an American (the creator of Chinese detective Chalie Chan) and this rather short novel titled 'The Agony Column' was published in 1916...three years later his first novel which I had traslated. It's quite interesting detective novel which also have some romance, wit and humor. You can read the novel through http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1814 http://www.archive.org/details/agonycolumn00biggrich Yes, the man in the book is also American. I guess there are some delicate things which can be understood between almost only (English) native speakers, like 'gray--grey', etc. Here's summary of the novel-- The story begins in a rather light-hearted way with an American visiting London and being quite taken by an American girl he sees breakfasting with her father at a London Hotel. Since arriving in London he has been fascinated by The Agony Column. He has seen numerous ads placed by persons who saw someone that interested them in passing and requested a meeting. Wondering what he has to loss, he places an ad to the girl he saw at breakfast. After a few days she replies that, since she is interested in mystery and romance, he may write her one letter every day for a week. When he sees her reply he thinks to himself: "We must have mystery and romance. But where - where shall we find them?" (from gutenberg.org) Thanks a lot, Han Donghoon > Thanks for you guys, especially John Ramsay, Leszek L., Einde O'Callaghan > around news groups, I had translated an english nevel to ours, and tossed to [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Donghoon... |
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