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Discussion Groups / British English / July 2007metonymous factors (or not) in humour
Yes, yes, yes, I'm now going to be looking for a specialist therapist who can help me with that intense sense of inferiority I'm feeling about not getting PSV (or whatever the vehicles are now referred to as) entitlement on my license... ...but something has occurred to me as cultural-linguistic factor in the arena of jokes--be they as told by a comedian (one-to-many) to an audience or in various one-to-fewer settings such as from behind bars. I'm sure most regular posters will have heard this particular one before but I'm not sure it's ever been here as a topic. Here's a paraphrase of it: Tommy and Jonny have been out on the beers to the extent they've left themselves with a long walk home and no money for a taxi. On their way home they walk past a 'bus depot and Jonny suddenly has a great idea. --I know, he says, why don't we nick a 'bus? --Ooh, I don't know, says Tommy, can you actually drive one? --Can't be that difficult, it's not like they have preselection boxes these days. So Jonny goes off and finds a way into the depot. By the time he gets back ol' Tommy's fallen fast asleep. Jonny gives the horn a bip. --C'mon on then Tom! let's go! Tommy rouses himself from his sleep and looks at his watch. --Cor, BeJuggingJason Jonny, it's nearly 4AM. They'll be coming in to get the early 'buses running soon. What took you so long? --Oh, it's the way they park them here. All the ones near the doors were the B and D routes, and they all go to the wrong side of town. It took me all my time to find the 37C service we need go past your place... Now, given that I heard this joke a number of years ago--the turn of the '80s, approximately, but am not really of the tram or trolleybus era, I am wondering whether the joke would've worked so well for so many people if that era, of railed and guided municipal transport, had not happened. Indeed, whether it would've been thought up. I'm not expecting definitive answers, or indeed any at all, but anyone who might be able to comment authoritatively on what sector it came into currency from (E.g., Blackpool summer season, or Glasgow CIU circuit, if it originated in cabaret/stand-up) or can recall hearing a version and reliably narrow it down to a particular year, is particularly invited to follow up. Follow-up has been set to news:uk.culture.language.english G DAEB COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON -- [snip] Which part did you feel was 'metonymous'?  SignatureBlue Sow > [snip] > > Which part did you feel was 'metonymous'? Perceptions of "public transport" as a genre. When I heard the joke VCRs were hardly commonplace, never mind the cliche that adults can't set them. By which I mean many people think along the lines (no pun originally intended) they are most used to thinking along. If the joke's comparatively recent then it didn't play on existing perceptions. If it was coined for use on a circuit that fixed-route transport was in use until a comparatively late stage then did it play on that? Is what I'm thinking. > -- > Blue Sow G DAEB COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON -- >> [snip] >> >> Which part did you feel was 'metonymous'? > > Perceptions of "public transport" as a genre. As the word "metonymous" probably doesn't exist, I suppose that's as good an answer as any. But what word did you really mean? SignatureJohn Briggs >>> [snip] >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > As the word "metonymous" probably doesn't exist, I suppose that's as good an > answer as any. But what word did you really mean? metonymy (n) Brit. /m{shtibar}{sm}t{rfa}n{schwa}mi/, U.S. /m{schwa}{sm}t{fata}n{schwa}mi/ a. Rhetoric. (A figure of speech characterized by) the action of substituting for a word or phrase denoting an object, action, institution, etc., a word or phrase denoting a property or something associated with it; an instance of this. b. In extended use: a thing used or regarded as a substitute for or symbol of something else. Also (esp. in Linguistics and Literary Theory): the process of semantic association involved in producing and understanding a metonymy. Because the association involved in metonymy is typically by contiguity rather than similarity, metonymy is often contrasted with metaphor. OED, DRAFT REVISION Dec. 2001 Just can't see how it applies... >>>> [snip] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Just can't see how it applies... In which case, you haven't answered my question :-) He didn't mean metonymy either... SignatureJohn Briggs -- John Briggs >>>>> [snip] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > In which case, you haven't answered my question :-) He didn't mean metonymy > either... Which is what I meant by "Just can't see how it applies..." >>>>>> [snip] >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Which is what I meant by "Just can't see how it applies..." Yes, but I wasn't the one who suggested that 'metonymy' was the word he meant :-) SignatureJohn Briggs >> [snip] >> >> Which part did you feel was 'metonymous'? > > Perceptions of "public transport" as a genre. That would not be metonymic though, would it? I note that elsewhere in this thread it has been suggested that as you are inventing the word live on Usenet, it can mean anything you want it to mean. I cannot find it within myself to disagree - knock yourself out, as they say. > When I heard the joke VCRs were hardly commonplace, > never mind the cliche that adults can't set them. How is that related to the topic? > By which I mean many people think along the lines > (no pun originally intended) they are most used > to thinking along. I will need a translation of that. There is nothing wrong with puns by the way - perfectly acceptable and often entertaining. > If the joke's comparatively recent then it didn't > play on existing perceptions. If it was coined > for use on a circuit that fixed-route transport was > in use until a comparatively late stage then did > it play on that? Is what I'm thinking. Meanwhile, back to metonyms? SignatureBlue Sow > --Can't be that difficult, it's not like they have preselection boxes > these days. Surely a pre-selector box makes it easier to drive? SignatureJohn Briggs > > --Can't be that difficult, it's not like they have preselection boxes > > these days. > > Surely a pre-selector box makes it easier to drive? I wouldn't know. I've neither driven a vehicle with one nor an automatic. Double de-clutching took a bit of time to get used to after a sycnhro- > -- > John Briggs G DAEB COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON -- >>> --Can't be that difficult, it's not like they have preselection >>> boxes these days. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with one nor an automatic. Double de-clutching > took a bit of time to get used to after a sycnhro- Do you always post on subjects you know nothing about? SignatureJohn Briggs > >>> --Can't be that difficult, it's not like they have preselection > >>> boxes these days. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Do you always post on subjects you know nothing about? I know this joke exists and has done for 25 years or so. I can reword it without the pre-selector box detail if you would prefer. It makes no odds as to what I was hoping for some informed discussion about--ie., when the joke first went to "air" and what can be said concerning the cultural factors and assumptions people made that render it humourous at first contact. But a trolleybous can, obviously, only go where there are overhead lines to power it. And I hadn't learned to drive when I first heard the joke. Any other Grices whilst we're here old chap? > -- > John Briggs G DAEB COPYRIGHT (C) 2007 SIPSTON -- >>>> --Can't be that difficult, it's not like they have preselection >>>> boxes these days. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Do you always post on subjects you know nothing about? But this is Usenet. You need to ask? <snippery> > Tommy rouses himself from his sleep and looks at his watch. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > many people if that era, of railed and guided municipal transport, had > not happened. Indeed, whether it would've been thought up. Can't help you with the provenance, but it works for me by virtue of the route numbers. Rails or guides are irrelevant - everyone knows that a 37C doesn't go to the wrong side of town. > I'm sure most regular posters will have heard this particular one > before but I'm not sure it's ever been here as a topic. Here's a > paraphrase of it: [excised] You might want to bear in mind that in its original form, this joke was what would now be considered unseemly. It targets the alleged ignorance and drunken habits of a certain nationality of individuals, represented in the joke by the two men. The 'joke' is that the two are 'too stupid' (because of their ethnicity) to realise that any bus can go anywhere or that the displayed numbers and destinations can be changed on any bus. Instead, they believe that they must steal the particular bus which services the route that passes near their homes. The joke has existed at least since the fifties and seems, on the basis of the version you posted, to have been cleaned up in terms of no longer identifying a particular nationality of individual. There is nothing in the joke which depends upon guided transport, trams, trolley buses etc., rather it is a simple 'racist' joke told by almost every child at secondary school. For reference, the persons referred to would have been supposed to have been natives of the British Isles but not natives of the United Kingdom. That should narrow the field sufficiently for you. SignatureBlue Sow >> I'm sure most regular posters will have heard this particular one >> before but I'm not sure it's ever been here as a topic. Here's a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > been natives of the British Isles but not natives of the United > Kingdom. That should narrow the field sufficiently for you. Cor is this humour? >>> I'm sure most regular posters will have heard this particular one >>> before but I'm not sure it's ever been here as a topic. Here's a [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Cor is this humour? Sadly not, but if he must investigate the nature of 'jokes', it seemed only fair to tell him what the 'joke' he is investigating is really about. He seemed not to know. SignatureBlue Sow |
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