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Discussion Groups / British English / March 2008Grammaticaly correct sentences (or not...)
Hello, as part of the writing of a program that will check grammar, we have to use a set of correct and incorrect sentences: 1) Two first class honors Carl wants among his senior sophister students this year 2) It is a picnic that Mel wants Val to try to enjoy 3) It is a picnic that Mel thinks is going to be enjoyed by Mel 4) It is a picnic that Mel thinks are going to be enjoyed by Mel 5) It is a picnic that Mel thinks that is going to be enjoyed by Mel 6) Mel thinks a picnic is going to be enjoyed by Mel 7) Mel thinks that a picnic is going to be enjoyed by Mel 8) To Mel Leslie seems to want to give a book 9) It is Mel that Leslie seems to want to give a book to 10) It is a book that Leslie seems to want to give to Mel But in fact, I have doubts. It seems to me that (considering grammatical aspects only) : Correct sentences : 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10 Incorrect sentences : 4 Big doubts : 1 (incorrect that way, but correct as part of a larger sentence ?), 8 What's your opinion ? Thanks ! At 11:58:04 on Mon, 24 Mar 2008, myname <lslfkjs@sdfmsflmk.com> wrote in <47e78939$0$860$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>: >Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >9) It is Mel that Leslie seems to want to give a book to >10) It is a book that Leslie seems to want to give to Mel 1. Incorrect order - try "Carl wants two first class honours among his senior sophister students this year". 2. Clumsy, but grammatically correct 3. Incorrect duplication of "Mel" - try "It is a picnic that Mel thinks s/he is going to enjoy" 4. Incorrect - "are" is wrong 5. Incorrect - second "that" is wrong 6. Incorrect duplication of "Mel" - try "Mel thinks a picnic is going to be enjoyable" 7. Incorrect duplication of "Mel" - try "Mel thinks that a picnic is going to be enjoyable" 8. Incorrect order - try "Leslie seems to want to give a book to Mel" 9. Incorrect order - try "It is Mel to whom Leslie seems to want to give a book" 10. Grammatically correct. Hope this helps!  SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 11:58:04 on Mon, 24 Mar 2008, myname <lslfkjs@sdfmsflmk.com> wrote in > <47e78939$0$860$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>: > >>9) It is Mel that Leslie seems to want to give a book to > 9. Incorrect order - try "It is Mel to whom Leslie seems to want to give a > book" I would say that your correction of no. 9 is the sort of language up with which Churchill refused to put. SignatureNoel > > At 11:58:04 on Mon, 24 Mar 2008, myname <lslfkjs@sdfmsflmk.com> wrote in > > <47e78939$0$860$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I would say that your correction of no. 9 is the sort of language up with > which Churchill refused to put. I thought it was not the language or the grammar, but the insubordination of being corrected about it, up with which Churchill refused to put. Cheers Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org Tony Mountifield schrieb: >>> At 11:58:04 on Mon, 24 Mar 2008, myname <lslfkjs@sdfmsflmk.com> wrote in >>> <47e78939$0$860$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I thought it was not the language or the grammar, but the insubordination of > being corrected about it, up with which Churchill refused to put. An element of both, I believe. He was protesting against the correction of a sentence he had written which he had ended with a preposition. Don't forget that he regarded himself as somewhat of a prose stylist. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > > At 11:58:04 on Mon, 24 Mar 2008, myname <lslf...@sdfmsflmk.com> wrote in > > <47e78939$0$860$ba4ac...@news.orange.fr>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- > Noel Churchill might have given us a foot-in-the-mouth response! > At 11:58:04 on Mon, 24 Mar 2008, myname <lslfkjs@sdfmsflmk.com> wrote in > <47e78939$0$860$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Hope this helps! Thanks a lot ! About sentences 3, 6 and 7 (duplication of Mel), if we were to use another name (Leslie), they would be correct, wouldn't they ? 3) It is a picnic that Mel thinks is going to be enjoyed by Leslie 6) Mel thinks a picnic is going to be enjoyed by Leslie 7) Mel thinks that a picnic is going to be enjoyed by Leslie At 14:26:03 on Mon, 24 Mar 2008, myname <lslfkjs@sdfmsflmk.com> wrote in <47e7abff$0$869$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>: >About sentences 3, 6 and 7 (duplication of Mel), if we were to use >another name (Leslie), they would be correct, wouldn't they ? > >3) It is a picnic that Mel thinks is going to be enjoyed by Leslie >6) Mel thinks a picnic is going to be enjoyed by Leslie >7) Mel thinks that a picnic is going to be enjoyed by Leslie Yes, they would all be grammatically correct, although they are not "natural" English. As a rule of thumb, the passive voice is best avoided(!). "Natural" English would incline towards: 3) It is a picnic that Mel thinks Leslie is going to enjoy 5) Mel thinks Leslie is going to enjoy a picnic 7) Mel thinks that Leslie is going to enjoy a picnic One particular difference between the three sentences is that, although they all refer to "a picnic", the first one clearly refers to a *specific* picnic; the other two refer to Leslie enjoying any possible picnic, but not a specific one. What makes the difference is the "It is" at the start of the first sentence; this indicates that a particular picnic ("it") is the subject of the sentence. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) I remember reading a language column by William Sapphire in an Indian magazine a few years ago where he had ruthlessly and meticulously set out to decimate all existing grammar softwares by ripping them apart and showing them for what they really were - junk. I hope you'll take that extra caution not to let someone like him find fault with yours, even though that would be next to asking for the impossible! Best of everything. To me it seems that sentence 1 will become o.k if you could begin it "Carl wants....." Sentence 3 seems a little contrived to me though it may be declared sound by a grammarian. Sentence 5 is downright crazy and certainly wrong. You can never use 'that' twice within that sentence structure. Sentence 8 does not convey the meanings conveyed by sentence 9 or 10 and therefore is wrong. All the above is half-baked stuff. Now let's wait for the real pundits..... > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Thanks ! > I remember reading a language column by William Sapphire in an Indian > magazine a few years ago where he had ruthlessly and meticulously set > out to decimate all existing grammar softwares... Please define "decimate." SignatureNoel Paul wrote: > I remember reading a language column by William Sapphire in an Indian > magazine a few years ago where he had ruthlessly and meticulously set > out to decimate all existing grammar softwares... I suspect it was William Safire. Look up 'decimate', I don't think you meant what it means. 'Software' doesn't have a plural; you can use the circumlocution 'software packages' though. JS >Paul wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >meant what it means. 'Software' doesn't have a plural; you can use the >circumlocution 'software packages' though. I sympathise JS, but in some parts of the world and in some fields of activity "software" does indeed have the plural "softwares" meaning "software packages" or "item of software". The singular "a software" is also used. Googling for "a software for" gives 102,000 results. The examples below are of formal rather than casual use of "a software": WGAViewer: A Software for Genomic Annotation of Whole Genome Association Studies. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18256235 The authors are at Duke University, Durham, North Carolina, USA. Getting Pajek: A software for large network analysis http://www.ccsr.ac.uk/methods/publications/snacourse/pajek.html The creator of the software appears to be Vladimir Batagelj of the University of Ljubljana, Slovenia. NET-SYNTHESIS: a software for synthesis, inference and ... http://bioinformatics.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/24/2/293 The authors of the article are all at US universities. Climatica : a software for the climatic information management http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/EMS05/00365/EMS05-A-00365.pdf cosis.net - Copernicus Online Service + Information System Providing Public Information and Services for registered Individuals and Organizations affiliated with Solar, Earth, Planetary and Space Sciences; Astrophysics, Microgravity and Life Sciences; or Radio Sciences. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in uk.culture.language.english) Most points, conceded. I was about to concede the 'software' point too, but Peter zoomed in with what turned out to be a rescue operation! ( should that be hyphenated? I'm not sure - rescue apparently seems to work as an adjectival.) I had used 'decimate' in the figurative sense to mean 'to rip apart', 'to destroy' or 'to severely criticise'. Is this objected to? "My nephew, having failed his matriculation, spends his time in systematic decimation of the piscean population in the rivulets around his village homestead" is a line I remember from a letter from an old friend. Of course, here the sense was literal. (I wouldn't go so far as to say he was an authority on UK English). "Note that you never hear of lophenation" went right above my head. (Almost like 'one flew over the cuckoo's head.) 'Was it supposed to be loafenation? Hyphenation question too is conceded, but, as something of curiosity value, find a quote from the Cambridge Advanced Learners' Dictionary below - I swear I didn't edit out the hyphen. first class (adjective) .............................. 2 A first class degree is the best possible degree qualification you can obtain from a British university. ... > I had used 'decimate' in the figurative sense to mean 'to rip apart', > 'to destroy' or 'to severely criticise'. Is this objected to? OED (2nd Ed.) gives four meanings, the first two (to do with taxation) being obsolete. That leaves: 3. Milit. To select by lot and put to death one in every ten of (a body of soldiers guilty of mutiny or other crime): a practice in the ancient Roman army, sometimes followed in later times. 4. transf. a. To kill, destroy, or remove one in every ten of. b. rhetorically or loosely. To destroy or remove a large proportion of; to subject to severe loss, slaughter, or mortality. Note that 4b is 'loose'. None of the illustrative quotations given suggests that the victims numbered more than one in ten. So, by this pedant (who would also object to your unnecessarily split infinitive), yes. SignatureNoel > Most points, conceded. I was about to concede the 'software' point > too, but Peter zoomed in with what turned out to be a rescue > operation! You'll note that almost all Peter's examples were from non-English sources though. It may be creeping in, but I work in technology and I've not heard it used in the UK. > I had used 'decimate' in the figurative sense to mean 'to rip apart', > 'to destroy' or 'to severely criticise'. Is this objected to? If used in the sense of "destroy utterly" it's poor usage, "annihilate" being a better choice. No one would object to it referring to literal reduction by 10%, or severe punishment. At least you'll understand when you read about the Roman emperor who had a legion decimated three times for mutiny- that meant three rounds of killing one in ten. I'll leave you to work out how many survived. > "Note that you never hear of lophenation" went right above my head. Sorry. Pun on high/low. > first class (adjective) > .............................. > 2 A first class degree is the best possible degree qualification you > can obtain from a British university. The first class was second-class. It's just a binding to make sure it's understood as an adjectival phrase. It may not be needed depending on context- if you can be sure your sense can be unambiguously construed, there's no problem. English is a language, not a legal code. JS > > I had used 'decimate' in the figurative sense to mean 'to rip > > apart', 'to destroy' or 'to severely criticise'. Is this objected > > to? > If used in the sense of "destroy utterly" it's poor usage, > "annihilate" being a better choice. No one would object to it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rounds of killing one in ten. I'll leave you to work out how many > survived. 729 (9 cubed) per 1000 of the original number. Actual figure unknown unless you know the size of the legion. SignatureNew Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te! David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/ > 729 (9 cubed) per 1000 of the original number. Actual figure unknown > unless you know the size of the legion. > David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop ukhttp://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/ Thanks for working it out for me! These would be the approximate numbers of legionaries in a legion depending on which period of history we find ourselves in! (source: wikipedia) The size of a typical legion varied widely throughout the history of ancient Rome, with complements of 4,200 legionaries in the republican period of Rome (split into 35 maniples of 120 legionaries each), to 5,200 plus auxilaries in the imperial period (split into 10 cohorts, 9 of 480 men each, plus the first cohort holding 800 men). >1) Two first class honors Carl wants among his senior sophister students >this year In addition to points that others have made, I think that it is usual to hyphenate "first-class". SignatureJohn Hall "If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties." Francis Bacon (1561-1626) > In addition to points that others have made, I think that it is usual to > hyphenate "first-class". > -- > John Hall Are you really, really sure? Just as e.e.cummings (the American poet) had an incurable distrust of the capitals, I tend to believe that genneXt distrusts the hyphenated compound word. I think 'first class' is hyphenated only in very rare adjectival positions such as 'a first- class mind.' Hyphenation, I think, as language is used today, is more the exception than the rule. >> In addition to points that others have made, I think that it is >> usual to hyphenate "first-class". [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > class mind.' Hyphenation, I think, as language is used today, is > more the exception than the rule. You have snipped the sentence, presumably so that we wouldn't notice that "first-class honors" is just one of those 'rare' adjectival positions. SignatureJohn Briggs > Are you really, really sure? Just as e.e.cummings (the American poet) > had an incurable distrust of the capitals, Poetic stylistic posing, like Shaw's attempts at spelling reform. Good poet though. > I tend to believe that > genneXt distrusts the hyphenated compound word. What's genneXt when it's at home? > I think 'first class' > is hyphenated only in very rare adjectival positions such as 'a first- > class mind.' Hyphenation, I think, as language is used today, is > more the exception than the rule. That's a half-baked idea. Note that you never hear of lophenation. JS |
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