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Corinthian values

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Ildhund - 15 Apr 2008 15:30 GMT
Does anyone know the origin of this expression? Is it biblical or classical?
I have a notion that the Corinthian/Commoners dichotomy is analogous to
Gentlemen/Players, the Corinthians being successors to Dandies and similar
high- (and loose-) living young gentlemen of means. Does it pre-date the
formation of the Corinthians football club in 1882?
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Noel

John Briggs - 15 Apr 2008 17:10 GMT
> Does anyone know the origin of this expression? Is it biblical or
> classical?

Classical.

I have a notion that the Corinthian/Commoners dichotomy is
> analogous to Gentlemen/Players, the Corinthians being successors to
> Dandies and similar high- (and loose-) living young gentlemen of
> means. Does it pre-date the formation of the Corinthians football
> club in 1882?

You have curious notions.  It relates to the ideal of amateur sport -
associated with Greece, for some reason, cf Olympic Games.
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John Briggs

Peter Duncanson - 15 Apr 2008 17:56 GMT
>> Does anyone know the origin of this expression? Is it biblical or
>> classical?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>You have curious notions.

As does the OED (most quotations snipt):

   A. adj.
   3. 'Relating to the licentious manners of Corinth' (J.),
      profligate; in 19th c. use: Given to elegant dissipation.

   4. (U.S.) Yachting. Amateur.

      1885 Harper's Mag. June 83/1 On the yacht of a friend who
      was fond of sailing Corinthian races.

   B. n.    
   2. (From the proverbial wealth, luxury, and licentiousness
      of ancient Corinth):
      {dag}a. A wealthy man; a
      profligate idler; a gay, licentious man; also, a
      shameless or 'brazen-faced' fellow (cf. A. 1c). Obs.
   
      b. A 'swell'; a man of fashion about town.
         'In the third decade of the present century the word,
         both as a substantive and an adjective, was at the
         height of its popularity' (Latham).

         1819 MOORE Tom Crib's Mem. 9 (Farmer) 'Twas diverting
         to see, as one ogled around, How Corinthians and
         Commoners mixed on the ground.  
 
      c. A wealthy amateur of sport who rides his own horses,
         steers his own yacht, etc.; esp. in U.S. an amateur
         yachtsman.
   
      Hence Co{sm}rinthianism.

> It relates to the ideal of amateur sport -
>associated with Greece, for some reason, cf Olympic Games.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in uk.culture.language.english)

John Briggs - 15 Apr 2008 19:46 GMT
>>> Does anyone know the origin of this expression? Is it biblical or
>>> classical?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> As does the OED (most quotations snipt):

They are confusing two different meanings.
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John Briggs

sprocket - 16 Apr 2008 08:15 GMT
> As does the OED (most quotations snipt):

Could you post at least the dates for the quotations for various
meanings, as this is nearer what the OP was after?
Ildhund - 16 Apr 2008 17:22 GMT
John Briggs wrote...
>> Does anyone know the origin of this expression? Is it biblical or
>> classical?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> You have curious notions.  It relates to the ideal of amateur sport -
> associated with Greece, for some reason, cf Olympic Games.

Why so curious? Do you have any evidence for a particular link between
Corinth (either in biblical or classical times) and the ideal of amateur
sport of any other variety than /to corinthiazesthai/ (fornication)?
Signature

Noel

chorleydnc@hotmail.com - 08 May 2008 05:19 GMT
> John Briggs wrote...
> >> Does anyone know the origin of this expression? Is it biblical or
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> --
> Noel

googling for Corinthian League gives the idea that it was an
association imposed upon the defeated Greeks by Phillip of Macedon as
a sort of United Nations against Persia, guaranteeing rights to the
subjugated nations in return for military assistance. With the Greeks
no longer fighting amongst each other, the olympic games could carry
on.

David
Ildhund - 08 May 2008 11:22 GMT
chorleydnc@hotmail.com wrote...
>> John Briggs wrote...
>> >> Does anyone know the origin of this expression? Is it biblical
>> >> or classical?

>> > Classical.

>> >> I have a notion that the Corinthian/Commoners dichotomy is
>> >> analogous to Gentlemen/Players, the Corinthians being
>> >> successors to Dandies and similar high- (and loose-) living
>> >> young gentlemen of means. Does it pre-date the formation of
>> >> the Corinthians football club in 1882?

>> > You have curious notions. It relates to the ideal of amateur
>> > sport - associated with Greece, for some reason, cf Olympic
>> > Games.

>> Why so curious? Do you have any evidence for a particular link
>> between Corinth (either in biblical or classical times) and the
>> ideal of amateur sport of any other variety than /to
>> corinthiazesthai/ (fornication)?

> googling for Corinthian League gives the idea that it was an
> association imposed upon the defeated Greeks by Phillip of Macedon
> as a sort of United Nations against Persia, guaranteeing rights to
> the subjugated nations in return for military assistance. With the
> Greeks no longer fighting amongst each other, the olympic games
> could carry on.

Another red herring, I fear. The Corinthian League was, as I
understand it, a purely political arrangement on a military basis,
and any link to the Olympic Games can only have been incidental.
Apart from that, the ideals of the athletes who took part in the
ancient Olympic (and other, for example Corinth's own Isthmian)
Games could hardly have been further from what most people seem to
understand by Corinthian values these days: victory at all costs, or
die in the attempt.
Signature

Noel

 
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