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Discussion Groups / British English / July 2008between and among
Which one is correct? Alternate between three things Alternate among three things > Which one is correct? > > Alternate between three things > > Alternate among three things Neither: alternate between two things.  SignatureJohn Briggs 22:53, lunedì 30 giugno 2008, John Briggs: >> Which one is correct? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Neither: alternate between two things. Suppose you have a three phase electric power system: you can alternate each one of the three phases to connect a mono-phase load every day to a different one of them. Signature°¿° > 22:53, lunedì 30 giugno 2008, John Briggs: >>> Which one is correct? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > alternate each one of the three phases to connect a mono-phase > load every day to a different one of them. "Alternate" is only correctly used for two choices. SignatureJohn Briggs 00:37, martedì 1 luglio 2008, John Briggs: >> 22:53, lunedì 30 giugno 2008, John Briggs: >>>> Which one is correct? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > "Alternate" is only correctly used for two choices. Really? Signature°¿° > 00:37, martedì 1 luglio 2008, John Briggs: >>> 22:53, lunedì 30 giugno 2008, John Briggs: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Really? This is my reading of the dictionary definition form teh Merriam-Webster Dictionary: 1: occurring or succeeding by turns <a day of alternate sunshine and rain> 2 a: arranged first on one side and then on the other at different levels or points along an axial line <alternate leaves> — compare opposite b: arranged one above or alongside the other 3: every other : every second <he works on alternate days> 4: constituting an alternative <took the alternate route home> 5: alternative Regards, Einde O'Callaghan 22:54, martedì 1 luglio 2008, Einde O'Callaghan: >> 00:37, martedì 1 luglio 2008, John Briggs: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 4: constituting an alternative <took the alternate route home> > 5: alternative Surely (2a) implies "two": the sides formed by a symmetry plane. However I still think that the concept of "alternative" can be extended to more than two choices. There are plants where leaves alternate on more than two positions. Signature°¿° > 22:54, martedì 1 luglio 2008, Einde O'Callaghan: >>> 00:37, martedì 1 luglio 2008, John Briggs: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > There are plants where leaves alternate on more than two > positions. Why can't you acceßpt the feel for the language possessed by a native speaker. I'm not the only native speaker of English who has told you that the word "alternate" implies a choice between two. You should also note that the word "alternative" isn't a direct synonym for "alternate" and doesn't necessarily imply a choice between two. Unless you can quote a reliable native-speaker source I'm afraid we'll have to conclude that your native language is interfering with your understanding of the English usage. REgards, Einde O'Callaghan <snip> >> However I still think that the concept of "alternative" can be >> extended to more than two choices. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > have to conclude that your native language is interfering with your > understanding of the English usage. Well said that man! Signaturethe dot wanderer at tesco dot net > You should also note that the word "alternative" isn't a direct > synonym for "alternate" It would appear that it is in the USA - but that is beside the point, of course. SignatureJohn Briggs >> You should also note that the word "alternative" isn't a direct >> synonym for "alternate" > > It would appear that it is in the USA - but that is beside the point, of > course. The Merriam-Webster gives one sense in which they are synonyms. This meaning is also prevalent in the British Isles. However for most of its meanings "alternative" isn't a synonym or "alternate" (as an adjective, of course). This is what I was trying to convey - not very clearly, obviously. :-( Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > > You should also note that the word "alternative" > > isn't a direct synonym for "alternate" > > It would appear that it is in the USA - but that is > beside the point, of course. One British dictionary* says that "alternate" for "alternative" is "chiefly N. Amer.", but another British dictionary** says without mentioning regionality that "alternate" is sometimes used to mean "alternative". Anyway, what point is it beside if the region having far more native English speakers than any other accepts that definition? It should be said, though, that while we may often hear on radio traffic reports "alternate routes advised", the usage should be avoided if we care about some proportion of readers or listeners thinking we are in error. It also needs to be said that we wouldn't use "alternate" for "alternative" in all cases. For example, commonly heard phrases are "alternative medicine" and "alternative lifestyle". I wouldn't expect to hear an American substitute "alternate" in those phrases. * _New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_ ** _Chambers Dictionary_, 1993 SignatureBob Cunningham | Everybody who wants to be in the Southern California | picture, get on this side of the USofA | table. | -- J. Christ (apocryphal?) At 07:19:35 on Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Woody Wordpecker <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote in <77np649ihudqeork0ljd75cnq8b7embqa3@4ax.com>: >It also needs to be said that we wouldn't use "alternate" >for "alternative" in all cases. For example, commonly heard >phrases are "alternative medicine" and "alternative >lifestyle". I wouldn't expect to hear an American >substitute "alternate" in those phrases. And yet, when The Monkees were told that they could not call their latest record "Randy Scouse Git", it became "Alternate Title". SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 07:19:35 on Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Woody Wordpecker <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> > wrote in <77np649ihudqeork0ljd75cnq8b7embqa3@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > And yet, when The Monkees were told that they could not call their > latest record "Randy Scouse Git", it became "Alternate Title". Reminds me of a musical group we used to hear about years ago. I imagine a group sitting around trying to dream up a name for their group. Somebody says, "How about 'Something Smith and the Redheads'?" Guess what the name of the group became. Smatter a fact, I now see that that title gets 268 Google hits. Le 1/07/08 22:54, dans 6cvjspF3gd7U1@mid.individual.net, « Einde O'Callaghan » <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> a écrit : >> 00:37, martedì 1 luglio 2008, John Briggs: >>>> 22:53, lunedì 30 giugno 2008, John Briggs: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Regards, Einde O'Callaghan ALTERNATE verb |ˈôltərˌnāt| [ intrans. ] : occur in turn repeatedly : the governorship alternated between the Republican and Democratic parties | bouts of depression alternate with periods of elation | [as adj. ] ( alternating) a season of alternating hot days and cool nights. • [ trans. ] do or perform in turn repeatedly : some adults who wish to alternate work with education. adjective |ˈôltərnit| (abbr.: alt.) [ attrib. ] 1 - every other; every second : she was asked to attend on alternate days. • (of two things) each following and succeeded by the other in a regular pattern : alternate bouts of intense labor and of idleness. • (of a sequence) consisting of alternate items. • Botany (of leaves or shoots) placed alternately on the two sides of the stem. 2 - taking the place of; alternative : the rerouted traffic takes a variety of alternate routes. noun |-nit| (abbr.: alt.) : a person who acts as a deputy or substitute. DERIVATIVES alternately |-nitlē| adverb alternation |ˌôltərˈnā sh ən| noun ORIGIN early 16th cent.: from Latin alternat- ‘done by turns,’ from alternare, from alternus ‘every other,’ from alter ‘other, the other.’ 10:56, mercoledì 9 luglio 2008, John John: > Le 1/07/08 22:54, dans 6cvjspF3gd7U1@mid.individual.net, « > Einde O'Callaghan » <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> a [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > from alternare, from alternus ‘every other,’ from alter > ‘other, the other.’ I gave a look at my Italian dictionary which says that "altro" (other) comes from Latin "alter" that means "the other of two". Signature°¿° > 22:53, lunedì 30 giugno 2008, John Briggs: >>> Which one is correct? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > alternate each one of the three phases to connect a mono-phase > load every day to a different one of them. I don't think so, unless you're from the other side of the pond. Signaturethe dot wanderer at tesco dot net 07:30, martedì 1 luglio 2008, The Wanderer: >> 22:53, lunedì 30 giugno 2008, John Briggs: >>>> Which one is correct? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I don't think so, unless you're from the other side of the > pond. As an Italian I live across the "little* pond. :-) Signature°¿° > > 22:53, lunedì 30 giugno 2008, John Briggs: > >>> Which one is correct? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > the dot wanderer at tesco dot net I tried to read a bit about the three-phased electrical power distribution system, but never came across the usage, 'alternate between three phases'. It is true you can tap power from any one of the three phases to pair with the neutor for domstic power consumption. Could you please report which, reasonably authentic source, has used this coinage? (The quote below is not important and meant only for the technologically inclined, among us.) Three-phase electric power is a common method of electric power transmission.[1] It is a type of polyphase system mainly used to power motors and many other devices. A three-phase system uses less conductor material to transmit electric power than equivalent single- phase, two-phase, or direct-current systems at the same voltage. "In a three-phase system, three circuit conductors carry three alternating currents (of the same frequency) which reach their instantaneous peak values at different times. Taking one conductor as the reference, the other two currents are delayed in time by one-third and two-thirds of one cycle of the electrical current. This delay between "phases" has the effect of giving constant power transfer over each cycle of the current, and also makes it possible to produce a rotating magnetic field in an electric motor." 20:27, mercoledì 2 luglio 2008, Paul: >> > 22:53, lunedì 30 giugno 2008, John Briggs: >> >>> Which one is correct? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > domstic power consumption. Could you please report which, > reasonably authentic source, has used this coinage? No, I cannot quote anything. I was only trying to make an example of alternation among more than two chices. Let me try again: if a pipe smoker has three pipes, that smoker can alternate among them. > (The quote below is not important and meant only for the > technologically inclined, among us.) [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > current, and also makes it possible to produce a rotating > magnetic field in an electric motor." Signature°¿° > 20:27, mercoledì 2 luglio 2008, Paul: "Let me try again: if a pipe smoker has three pipes, that smoker can alternate among them. " He can not, at least, for the time being. He will have to be satisfied with 'choosing one of the three pipes' or 'one among the three'. ( If he chooses all three at once and smokes, he's sure to choke!) But then, language evolves and may be, just may be , if you get lucky, they'll alternate between three things two hundred years from now. Keep your fingers crossed! 20:34, giovedì 3 luglio 2008, Paul: >> 20:27, mercoledì 2 luglio 2008, Paul: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ( If he chooses all three at once and smokes, he's sure to > choke!) :-) What you mean is that every time the smoker chooses one of the pipes among three, but how can you stress the meaning of "using every time a different pipe in a given order"? (BTW, you wrote "he" but I carefully avoided to write that the smoker is a man ;-) > But then, language evolves and may be, just may be , if you > get lucky, they'll alternate between three things two hundred > years from now. Keep your fingers crossed! XX Signature°¿° > 20:34, giovedì 3 luglio 2008, Paul: >>> 20:27, mercoledì 2 luglio 2008, Paul: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > pipes among three, but how can you stress the meaning of "using > every time a different pipe in a given order"? ... using (each of) them in turn Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > (BTW, you wrote "he" but I carefully avoided to write that the > smoker is a man ;-) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > XX > > 20:27, mercoledì 2 luglio 2008, Paul: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > they'll alternate between three things two hundred years from now. > Keep your fingers crossed! Meanwhile, see what your _New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_ says about the verb "alternate": 2 v.i. Of two (occas. more than two) things: succeed each other by turns. E18. SignatureBob Cunningham | Everybody who wants to be in the Southern California | picture, get on this side of the USofA | table. | -- J. Christ (apocryphal?) > Let me try again: if a pipe smoker has three pipes, that smoker > can alternate among them. If I were he (not that I would ever smoke a pipe), I could rotate around/among them, but not alternate among/between them. Cheers Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org At 22:23:12 on Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Tony Mountifield <tony@softins.clara.co.uk> wrote in <g4jjgg$603$1@softins.clara.co.uk>: >> Let me try again: if a pipe smoker has three pipes, that smoker >> can alternate among them. > >If I were he (not that I would ever smoke a pipe), I could rotate >around/among them, but not alternate among/between them. When there are only two items, "alternate" tells us that the sequence is A - B - A - B. It is the only possible sequence. When there are three items, use of "alternate" does not tell us the sequence. It could be A - B - C - A - B - C, or it could be more random, e.g. A - B - A - C - B - C- A. The former can be expressed by "rotate"; the latter by, perhaps "select". But neither can be expressed by "alternate". SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) In uk.culture.language.english on Thu, 3 Jul 2008 22:23:12 +0000 (UTC), }In article <486c0ac4$0$35959$4fafbaef@reader2.news.tin.it>, }ADPUF <flyhunter@mosq.it> wrote: }> }> Let me try again: if a pipe smoker has three pipes, that smoker }> can alternate among them. } }If I were he (not that I would ever smoke a pipe), I am. } I could rotate around/among them, I do. } but not alternate among/between them. I can't and don't - I agree that "alternate" would not be an option. I am born and bred, an english man, and I speak only as a native english speaker. {R} At 14:26:44 on Fri, 4 Jul 2008, {R} <nospam@spam.nium.org> wrote in <s19s64t5c9uk3j7q7iivugtvnenqi3svda@4ax.com>: >I am born and bred, an english man, and I speak only as a native english >speaker. "But in spite of all temptations To belong to other nations, He remains an Englishman - He remains an Englishman!" However, Richard, I suspect that your vocabulary is not necessarily that of the man on the Clapham Omnibus... ;-} SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 14:26:44 on Fri, 4 Jul 2008, {R} <nospam@spam.nium.org> wrote in > <s19s64t5c9uk3j7q7iivugtvnenqi3svda@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > However, Richard, I suspect that your vocabulary is not necessarily that > of the man on the Clapham Omnibus... ;-} Are there any omnibuses in Clapham these days? REgards, Einde O'Callaghan >> At 14:26:44 on Fri, 4 Jul 2008, {R} <nospam@spam.nium.org> wrote in >> <s19s64t5c9uk3j7q7iivugtvnenqi3svda@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Are there any omnibuses in Clapham these days? No 35, No 37, No 39, No 49, No 77, No 87, No 155, No 156, No 170, No 219, No 295, No 319, No 337, No 344, No 345... SignatureJohn Briggs >>> At 14:26:44 on Fri, 4 Jul 2008, {R} <nospam@spam.nium.org> wrote >>> in [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > No 35, No 37, No 39, No 49, No 77, No 87, No 155, No 156, No 170, > No 219, No 295, No 319, No 337, No 344, No 345... You're saying No omnibuses in Clapham? SignatureNoel At 08:01:58 on Sat, 5 Jul 2008, Ildhund <jnllb@removemsn.com> wrote in <g4n8ll$4bv$1@registered.motzarella.org>: >>> Are there any omnibuses in Clapham these days? >> >> No 35, No 37, No 39, No 49, No 77, No 87, No 155, No 156, No 170, No >>219, No 295, No 319, No 337, No 344, No 345... > >You're saying No omnibuses in Clapham? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yes. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >>> 22:53, lunedì 30 giugno 2008, John Briggs: >>>>> Which one is correct? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > distribution system, but never came across the usage, 'alternate > between three phases'. No, and neither have I, and I was an Electrical Engineer by profession. Signaturethe dot wanderer at tesco dot net > Which one is correct? > Alternate between three things > Alternate among three things You have posted this query separately to three newsgroups that I know of. That's considered a no-no by some people. It's said to be wasteful of Internet resources compared with crossposting. On the other hand, given that some spam filters reject crosspostings to a number of groups greater than some specified number, I suppose it's a way to sneak around that potential obstacle. >> Which one is correct? >> Alternate between three things [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >specified number, I suppose it's a way to sneak around that >potential obstacle. Internet resources are cheap, but our time isn't. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs Near Dublin, Ireland > >> Which one is correct? > >> Alternate between three things [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Internet resources are cheap, but our time isn't. Crossposting instead of separate posting would have saved at least my time. When a message is crossposted, my newsreader, Agent, displays it in only one of the newsgroups. I found it in three because it was separately posted in each. I took the time to read the extra two to see if they were different from the first one. They weren't. > > >> Which one is correct? > > >> Alternate between three things [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Well, this is the scenario if you are a regular at a few different language news groups. What if one fails to get a satisfactory answer / explanation from a single news group? Does successive postings to different news groups then stand vindicated? Can successive postings done out of necessity be treated differently from cross postings? At 11:03:30 on Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Paul <paulmathewmac@gmail.com> wrote in <9e32cc28-860b-4706-81a7-8cee101332c3@f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>: >Well, this is the scenario if you are a regular at a few different >language news groups. What if one fails to get a satisfactory answer / >explanation from a single news group? Does successive postings to >different news groups then stand vindicated? Can successive postings >done out of necessity be treated differently from cross postings? Rather than create a new topic in such circumstances, it is better to add the second group to the existing discussion; this enables the people there to know that a discussion has started (although it has not produced the answer the OP wants), and they can if they wish go and read that discussion. Otherwise, you could get three separate topics, sequential rather than parallel, but each one giving the same answers, because they wouldn't know that the question had already been discussed elsewhere! It is rare for any subject to be on-topic for more than three newsgroups, and cross-posting between three groups should not trip any official cross-post limits, nor any sensible[0] personal ones. [0] Subjective value judgement based on the fact that, in any group which is under troll attack, I filter at the four-newsgroup level. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) you are right. you are right. Sorry >> Which one is correct? >> Alternate between three things [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > specified number, I suppose it's a way to sneak around that > potential obstacle. |
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