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Discussion Groups / British English / July 2008[skynews] the canoe man story
well, you know, this week I watched a cool special on skynews, it was the "the canoe man story" that was a special (very funny for an italian watcher) about the missing englishman who disappeared for long time to stole lots of money from the assurance companies... Well, expensive house or cars, and luxury lifestyle desn't match with credit cards, you know :))) Well, I watched the tv program, but you know, skynews sometimes is too british for me ;P and the program came on tv only one time so I didn't have the choice to listen again to check the misanderstanding points. Well, the point is this one. Skynews told the canone man stayed at home for a couple of year to improuve is barb on his face, but as far as I listenend, he also helped a neightbourd's son about a sat problems or about a decoder tv. Later the neightbours discovered on tv, the canone was still missing from this family. The english police man, you know, he spoke with the reporter but, I don't catch too much about english rhythms and his answers. the policeman was too british for me :) *damn* . I think I have to watch more skynews to improuve the oral comprehension about english rhythms... Well, you know, I'm not a good listener so it's possibile that I catched no right meanings of this part of the canone man story. :) Well, you know, my question is: what did the police? =8-) you know, did they ask to the neightbours too, about the canone man? How was possible? =8-) How was possibile for the canone man to change is primary identity about his fake death? you know, things like the identity card or the drive licence... they are documents... how was it possibile for a normal man to f.ck all english systems?? Are english controls so dude or are the assurance companies so dork?? you know ;) what I mean  Signature"I bit portano i caratteri. I caratteri le parole. Le parole, l'anima." www.6502.4000.it well, you know, this week I watched a cool special on skynews, it was the "the canoe man story" that was a special (very funny for an italian watcher) about the missing englishman who disappeared for long time to stole lots of money from the assurance companies... Well, expensive house or cars, and luxury lifestyle desn't match with credit cards, you know :))) Well, I watched the tv program, but you know, skynews sometimes is too british for me ;P and the program came on tv only one time so I didn't have the choice to listen again to check the misanderstanding points. Well, the point is this one. Skynews told the canone man stayed at home for a couple of year to improuve is barb on his face, but as far as I listenend, he also helped a neightbourd's son about a sat problems or about a decoder tv. Later the neightbours discovered on tv, the canone was still missing from this family. The english police man, you know, he spoke with the reporter but, I don't catch too much about english rhythms and his answers. the policeman was too british for me :) *damn* . I think I have to watch more skynews to improuve the oral comprehension about english rhythms... Well, you know, I'm not a good listener so it's possibile that I catched no right meanings of this part of the canone man story. :) Well, you know, my question is: what did the police? =8-) you know, did they ask to the neightbours too, about the canone man? How was possible? =8-) How was possibile for the canone man to change is primary identity about his fake death? you know, things like the identity card or the drive licence... they are documents... how was it possibile for a normal man to f.ck all english systems?? Are english controls so dude or are the assurance companies so dork?? you know ;) what I mean Signature"I bit portano i caratteri. I caratteri le parole. Le parole, l'anima." www.6502.4000.it >well, you know, this week I watched a cool special on skynews, it was >the "the canoe man story" that was a special (very funny for an italian [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >licence... they are documents... how was it possibile for a normal man >to f.ck all english systems?? We do not have Identity Cards in the United Kingdom (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland). John Darwin started using the name John Jones. This was the name of someone born in the same year as him but who had died at the age of five weeks. John Darwin used John Jones's Birth Certificate and pretended that it was his own. Using it he was able to get a passport and a driving licence. Birth Certificates are public documents and official copies are available to anyone. >Are english controls so dude or are the assurance companies so dork?? >you know ;) what I mean The controls are weak, but many law-abiding people prefer it that way. We see government issued ID cards as being associated with fascism and other forms of dictatorship. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in uk.culture.language.english) > We do not have Identity Cards in the United Kingdom (England, > Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland). WOW... why not? =8-7 > John Darwin started using the name John Jones. This was the name > of someone born in the same year as him but who had died at the > age of five weeks. well you know, I think I did not catch this part inside the skynews report about the canone man... > John Darwin used John Jones's Birth Certificate and pretended > that it was his own. Using it he was able to get a passport and > a driving licence. Birth Certificates are public documents and > official copies are available to anyone. this sounds odd, is there no control about who is alive and who is not? =8-7 > >Are english controls so dude or are the assurance companies so dork?? > >you know ;) what I mean > > The controls are weak, that's not the fact od strong or weak controls, the point is silly controls or cool controls ;) > but many law-abiding people prefer it > that way. We see government issued ID cards as being associated > with fascism and other forms of dictatorship. all italian politics are bad, italian people usually watch too italian tv :) so they sucks everithing. But you know :) the canone man story sounds like a funny words, all the british companies, pension funds, assicurative companies and so on, imho they seem quite "suckers" :) Signature"I bit portano i caratteri. I caratteri le parole. Le parole, l'anima." www.6502.4000.it >> We do not have Identity Cards in the United Kingdom (England, >> Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland). > WOW... why not? > =8-7 Their introduction was rejected on the grounds of individual rights having priority over state control. This has a strong tradition in English-speaking countries. You'll find that there are no state idetity cards in Ireland, Canada, the United States, Australia or New Zealand either. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan Il Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:38:06 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan ha scritto: >>> We do not have Identity Cards in the United Kingdom (England, Wales, >>> Scotland and Northern Ireland). [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > having priority over state control. Thys has a strong tradition in > English-speaking countries. this strong tradition grows up lots of sucker :-) if may I express my opinion, as the evidence are showing about the canoe man story > You'll find that there are no state idetity > cards in Ireland, Canada, the United States, Australia or New Zealand > either. Well, you don't have any identity documents to show who you are? How can you prove that you are who you are saying about when you make a sticky contract and so on... =8-7 Signature--- "I bit portano i caratteri. I caratteri le parole. Le parole, l'anima." www.6502.4000.it > Il Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:38:06 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan ha scritto: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > this strong tradition grows up lots of sucker :-) if may I express my > opinion, as the evidence are showing about the canoe man story Such things happen only rarely - that's why this story made the news. Falsification of identities is also possible in countries with ID cards too. Here in Germany at least a couple of these make the news every year. >> You'll find that there are no state idetity >> cards in Ireland, Canada, the United States, Australia or New Zealand >> either. > Well, you don't have any identity documents to show who you are? > How can you prove that you are who you are saying about when you make a > sticky contract and so on... There are other forms of ID other than state identity cards, e.g. bank and credit cards, driving licences (the most common one), passports etc. REgards, Einde O'Callaghan Il Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:50:37 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan ha scritto: >> Il Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:38:06 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan ha scritto: >> this strong tradition grows up lots of sucker :-) if may I express my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > too. Here in Germany at least a couple of these make the news every > year. sure but it's not so easy as the canoe man did, simply on using a birth certificate of a died person ;P that's not the point about weak controls versus strong controls, the point turns around about silly controls and cool controls ;-) >>> You'll find that there are no state idetity cards in Ireland, Canada, >>> the United States, Australia or New Zealand either. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > There are other forms of ID other than state identity cards, e.g. bank > and credit cards, driving licences (the most common one), passports etc. That's a ricorsive problem as I see. :-) To have passports, credit cards, driving license, which ID can you show to prove that you are really who you are saying about. Is it necessary a certificate of birth to have driving license or others ID ?? Too british for me... ;-) Signature--- "I bit portano i caratteri. I caratteri le parole. Lu parole, l'anima." www.6502.4000.it > Il Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:50:37 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan ha scritto: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Too british for me... I can only speak for the conditions for getting an Irish passport. In order to get a passport for the first time you have to get your identity verified by an identifiable person of authority, i.e. a policeman, a doctor, a bank manager, a head teacher or similar person. When you want to renew your passport you just have to present your old passport along with the new pictures, signature etc. Obviously if your appearance has changed beyond recognition or the signature is unrecognisable the authorities will refuse to renew your passport until you provide similar verification of your identity. It works and people prefer it that way. The few cases of fraud are not sufficiently numerous to convince people of the necessity for change. The current debate in Britain about introducing identity cards shows this. In general people just don't trust the government or the authorities with too much personal information. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan thank you, I appreciate. Signature"I bit portano i caratteri. I caratteri le parole. Le parole, l'anima." www.6502.4000.it 12:38, domenica 27 luglio 2008, Einde O'Callaghan: >>> We do not have Identity Cards in the United Kingdom >>> (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland). [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > there are no state idetity cards in Ireland, Canada, the > United States, Australia or New Zealand either. Norway, perhaps they too have no IC. Most Italians are unaware of that preference. I too would prefer having no IC in my wallet. Now our right wing Gov.t wants to get fingerprints of everybody. Signature°¿° >>How was possibile for the canone man to change is primary identity about >>his fake death? you know, things like the identity card or the drive [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >a driving licence. Birth Certificates are public documents and >official copies are available to anyone. It shouldn't have be that easy as the copy would have been clearly marked as such and that should have been a cue for further investigation. It seems to be more a matter of lackadaisical implementation than the rules themselves. The scandal of using copy certificates for fake passports was known about for years but nothing effective ever seemed to be done about it. Now they *seem* to be going to the opposite extreme in checking new applications with interviews etc but only, I suspect, until the fuss has died down enough to avoid spending money on it. SignaturePhil C. >>>How was possibile for the canone man to change is primary identity about >>>his fake death? you know, things like the identity card or the drive [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >It shouldn't have be that easy as the copy would have been clearly >marked as such As far as I know all Birth Certificates are marked as "Certified Copy of an Entry of Birth". The only original is in the official register. For example my own Birth Certificate has the usual details, typed rather than handwritten as in the register, and then a signed declaration: I, xxxx, Registrar of Births and Deaths for the Sub-District of yyyyyyy, in the County Borough of zzzzzz, do hereby certify that this is a true copy of the entry No. nnn in the Register Book of Births for the said Sub-District, and that such Register Book is now legally in my custody. Witness My Hand the nth day of month mmm 19yy <signature> This was issued by the local registrar when my parents registered my birth. My late wife lost her certificate. The new one she received has a photocopy of the entry in the original register and is: Certified to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a Register of Births in the District above mentioned. This was issued by the General Register Office 60 years after her birth. It has the same function as the one given to her parents when her birth was registered. I presume that the GRO has photocopies (on computer?) of the original registers. > and that should have been a cue for further >investigation. It seems to be more a matter of lackadaisical [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >applications with interviews etc but only, I suspect, until the fuss >has died down enough to avoid spending money on it. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in uk.culture.language.english) Is there online a free website just like www.ancestry.com to put free odd inquiry about english surname with date before 1944 ?? Signature"I bit portano i caratteri. I caratteri le parole. Le parole, l'anima." www.6502.4000.it >My late wife lost her certificate. The new one she received has >a photocopy of the entry in the original register and is: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I presume that the GRO has photocopies (on computer?) of the >original registers. Was there no date of issue on the copy? Any I've ordered have been photocopies but have had one and the same applies to one ordered in my family in 1866 for a birth in 1842. SignaturePhil C. >>My late wife lost her certificate. The new one she received has >>a photocopy of the entry in the original register and is: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Was there no date of issue on the copy? Yes. > Any I've ordered have been >photocopies but have had one and the same applies to one ordered in my >family in 1866 for a birth in 1842. There are three dates on the certificate (Certified Copy of an Entry of Birth). The photocopy of the handwritten entry in the register contains the date of birth and the date of registration. Birth: a day in April 1938 Registration: later in April 1938 Below that, in appropriate spaces in the printed text of the certificate are the handwritten day, month and year of issue of the document. "Given at the General Register Office, under the Seal of the said Office, the 22nd day of April 1998." There is no official significance in the fact that the copy was issued in the same month of the year as the birth. At the bottom of the document it says: WARNING: THIS CERTIFICATE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF THE IDENTITY OF THE PERSON PRESENTING IT. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in uk.culture.language.english) >>>My late wife lost her certificate. The new one she received has >>>a photocopy of the entry in the original register and is: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > WARNING: THIS CERTIFICATE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF THE IDENTITY OF > THE PERSON PRESENTING IT. Ultimately they're all copies but the date of issue *could* have been enough to flag up to passport authorities that it wasn't the cert issued at birth (which has to be within 4 weeks IIRC) and to choose such cases to investigate further. No further checks would be absolutely foolproof - identity is a subtle concept - and an "original" birth cert isn't proof. But it could have made things harder for the canoe men of this world without hugely inconveniencing genuine applicants such as your wife. I *think* they do now cross-check requests for birth certs during the previous 50 years to see if there was also a death cert issued for that person (or something) - but Darwin was older than that anyway. And I can't see that such cross-checking would always be effective - people move around and have common names etc. SignaturePhil C. >>>>My late wife lost her certificate. The new one she received has >>>>a photocopy of the entry in the original register and is: [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >harder for the canoe men of this world without hugely inconveniencing >genuine applicants such as your wife. I assume that the value of a birth certificate to a canoe man -- someone wish to adopt the identity of a dead person -- is the information contained in it: name, date of birth, place of birth, details of parents, etc. The fraudster has to get these right because they can be checked by anyone else simply by inspecting the official records or getting hold of a copy of the birth certificate. I imagine that successfully creating a completely fictitious identity is much more difficult, if not impossible, for a "normal" person. >I *think* they do now cross-check requests for birth certs during the >previous 50 years to see if there was also a death cert issued for >that person (or something) - but Darwin was older than that anyway. >And I can't see that such cross-checking would always be effective - >people move around and have common names etc. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in uk.culture.language.english) >>>How was possibile for the canone man to change is primary identity about >>>his fake death? you know, things like the identity card or the drive [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >applications with interviews etc but only, I suspect, until the fuss >has died down enough to avoid spending money on it. As Peter said, all birth certificates are copies of the original. That scam of using a dead person's details to get a valid passport in someone else's name was first brought to the attention of a wide audience in Freddy Forsythe's book "The Day of the Jackal", where the Jackal found the tombstone of a boy who'd been born around the time he was and who had died in infancy. He then searched the church records for details and forged the signature of the local vicar on his passport application. His hiding of his identity was so good that after he'd been shot the man whom the police thought he was turned up at his flat after a holiday and wondered what the police were doing there. As has been mentioned, all applications for new passports (not replacements) today require the applicant to be interviewed in person. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >How was possibile for the canone man to change is primary identity about >his fake death? you know, things like the identity card or the drive [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Are english controls so dude or are the assurance companies so dork?? >you know ;) what I mean This news report describes how his death was officially certified: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1571771/Inquiry-into-death-certificate.html Because all the evidence pointed to John Darwin having died in an accident at sea and his body having been washed away and not found, the Coroner's Inquest (a type of court proceeding) decided that John Darwin had died. It seems that Mrs Darwin lied to the Inquest. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in uk.culture.language.english) > This news report describes how his death was officially certified: > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1571771/Inquiry-into-death-certific > ate.html thank you, I appreciate! > Because all the evidence pointed to John Darwin having died in > an accident at sea and his body having been washed away and not > found, the Coroner's Inquest (a type of court proceeding) > decided that John Darwin had died. > > It seems that Mrs Darwin lied to the Inquest. ya, that's a fact, I understand the part of skynews reports about why the canoe man come back to england. I did not understand the main part about the policeman interview... too british for me :#) Signature"I bit portano i caratteri. I caratteri le parole. Le parole, l'anima." www.6502.4000.it |
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