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Ordinarily, temporarily, momentarily

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ct - 17 Dec 2008 13:54 GMT
I am somewhat confused about the proper British pronunciation of words
like "ordinarily", "temporarily", and "momentarily".

As I understand it, in British pronunciation the adjectives
"ordinary", "temporary", and "momentary" all have a silent "a",
whereas Americans not only pronounce the "a", but have a secondary
stress on that letter.

But what happens when you turn the adjectives into adverbs? According
to my dictionary, the proper British pronunciation is still to have a
silent "a" in "ordinarily", "temporarily", and "momentarily" and
pronounce them all with the stress on the first syllable. However, my
feeling is that many British speakers use the American pronunciation
and stress the "a" in these words.

What is common and what is considered correct British?

--
Claus
John Briggs - 17 Dec 2008 15:27 GMT
> I am somewhat confused about the proper British
> pronunciation of words like "ordinarily", "temporarily",
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> What is common and what is considered correct British?

The first thing to state is that the British are amazingly (and probably
excessively) tolerant of Americans and American pronunciation. If they ever
affect not to understand, they are making a point about cultural imperialism
:-)

It is not so much that the "a" is silent in "ordinary", "temporary", and
"momentary" as that it is so unstressed as to be practically a schwa. (The
preceding vowel is also unstressed.)   So, in  "ordinarily", "temporarily",
and "momentarily", it is the "i" that is silent in the correct British
pronunciation. The preceding vowel is often unstressed as well:
"ord'n'r'ly". But you also hear all vowels pronounced: "ordin-arilly".
Signature

John Briggs

Ildhund - 18 Dec 2008 01:44 GMT
> I am somewhat confused about the proper British pronunciation of
> words like "ordinarily", "temporarily", and "momentarily".
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> What is common and what is considered correct British?

I think the concept of 'proper British pronunciation' died a long
time ago, and it seems that nowadays anything goes.
That said, your three examples are not exactly parallel. I pronounce
the first adjective with three syllables, the second with four and
the third with something in between depending on the context; the
word doesn't sound the same in "a momentary lapse" and "the lapse
was momentary." The accent is on the first syllable in every case.
So I can't agree with your understanding. On the other hand, I
pronounce all the adverbs with stress on the 'a'. I find it very
uncomfortable trying to say 'temporarily' without pronouncing the
'a'.
Signature

Noel

Tony Mountifield - 18 Dec 2008 10:00 GMT
> word doesn't sound the same in "a momentary lapse" and "the lapse
> was momentary."

I wonder if leftpondians use "momentary" differently to we Brits?
The one that always grates with me is "momentarily" being used to
mean "in a short time from now" rather than "for a brief duration":
"Please fasten your seatbelts, we will be landing momentarily."
But I want to land and stay landed! :-)

Cheers
Tony
Signature

Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

Ildhund - 18 Dec 2008 15:12 GMT
Tony Mountifield wrote...
>> word doesn't sound the same in "a momentary lapse" and "the lapse
>> was momentary."

> I wonder if leftpondians use "momentary" differently to we Brits?
> The one that always grates with me is "momentarily" being used to
> mean "in a short time from now" rather than "for a brief
> duration":
> "Please fasten your seatbelts, we will be landing momentarily."
> But I want to land and stay landed! :-)

The adverb, yes:
OED (Draft revision June 2008):
   momentarily, adv.
   1. For a moment; for a very short time, fleetingly.
   2. At the moment; instantly. /Now rare./
   3. At every moment; moment by moment. /Now rare./
   4. Chiefly /N. Amer./ At any moment; in a moment, soon.

The American usage makes me stop and think, too. I'm glad the OED
gives it lowest priority.
I won't comment on your first sentence ;)
Signature

Noel

Paul - 18 Dec 2008 20:00 GMT
> In article <gic9up$h7...@news.motzarella.org>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Work: t...@softins.co.uk -http://www.softins.co.uk
> Play: t...@mountifield.org -http://tony.mountifield.org

Well, the Air India pilots are trained to say ' We'll be landing in a
short while from now, the weather outside is 30 degree celsius, keep
your seat belts fastened, your mobile phones switched off and your
fingers crossed".
ct - 18 Dec 2008 16:49 GMT
> On the other hand, I
> pronounce all the adverbs with stress on the 'a'. I find it very
> uncomfortable trying to say 'temporarily' without pronouncing the
> 'a'.

Thank you. The word "temporarily" was my main reason for asking the
question in the first place. I am glad to hear that stressing the "a"
is common in British English.

--
Claus
David - 18 Dec 2008 17:10 GMT
In article
<6a57b036-288f-46c7-a618-9ba09a3cb426@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> > On the other hand, I
> > pronounce all the adverbs with stress on the 'a'. I find it very
> > uncomfortable trying to say 'temporarily' without pronouncing the
> > 'a'.

> Thank you. The word "temporarily" was my main reason for asking the
> question in the first place. I am glad to hear that stressing the "a"
> is common in British English.

Most English now move their lips when speaking. Probably a few of the
upper crust still manage to ventriloquise which would result in all by
the first vowel being dropped.

Signature

New Marmite(TM): Not as thick! Not as dark! Not as te!

David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop uk
http://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/

Paul - 18 Dec 2008 19:03 GMT
> In article
> <6a57b036-288f-46c7-a618-9ba09a3cb...@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> David - toro-danyo atcost uku fullstop co fullstop ukhttp://www.toro-danyo.uku.co.uk/

I do believe we are in an age where the flux of language seems to take
the direction of global intelligibility.
Attempts to fiercely retain the local flavour of pronunciation, choice
of syntax or spelling brings to mind Pink Floyd's
'A Momentary Lapse of Reason'.
Charles Lindsey - 18 Dec 2008 11:14 GMT
>I am somewhat confused about the proper British pronunciation of words
>like "ordinarily", "temporarily", and "momentarily".

>As I understand it, in British pronunciation the adjectives
>"ordinary", "temporary", and "momentary" all have a silent "a",
>whereas Americans not only pronounce the "a", but have a secondary
>stress on that letter.

Well this English speaker usually pronounces the 'a' in the adjectives,
but without emphasis on it.

But I think it should _always_ be pronounced in the adverbs, simply because
it is almost impossible to pronounce it otherwise.

Signature

Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133   Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

Paul - 18 Dec 2008 19:51 GMT
> I am somewhat confused about the proper British pronunciation of words
> like "ordinarily", "temporarily", and "momentarily".
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> --
> Claus

I do not think either the Brits or those in the U.S. omit any vowel
sound in these words completely. In other words, there are no silent
syllables in these words.Theoretically, every syllable in a word is
uttered with a 'stress level' different from that of the other
syllables in the same word. But for practical considerations, we could
say, a word with four syllables or more probably has a syllable with a
primary stress and another with a secondary stress.The syllable that
is stressed the most, naturally, is the one that takes the primary
stress, and the one that is uttered with the second highest degree of
stress (force of utterance) is the one that takes the secondary
stress. When a particular syllable takes a primary stress, chances are
that the vowel in the syllable is pronounced with a longer time
duration than the vowels in the other syllables. This is what you
might perhaps have mistaken as the 'silencing' of a vowel. In 'or-di-
na-ri-ly', the third syllable 'na' takes the primary stress, the first
syllable 'or', the secondary. In 'tem-po-ra-ri-ly' the third syllable
'ra' takes the primary stress and first syllable 'tem', the secondary.
In 'mo-men-ta-ri-ly' too the third syllable takes the primary stress
and the first syllable, the third. This pattern does seem repetitive,
but watch out for the pitfalls of phonetics if you are not a native
speaker of English because you are likely to come across exceptions to
this pattern in words commonly used as adjectives.
Charles Lindsey - 19 Dec 2008 15:34 GMT
>I do not think either the Brits or those in the U.S. omit any vowel
>sound in these words completely. In other words, there are no silent
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>speaker of English because you are likely to come across exceptions to
>this pattern in words commonly used as adjectives.

No! No! No!

You have got your primary and secondary enphases exactly back-to-front in
all three of those examples, which clearly marks you out as a Leftpondian.

No speaker of British English would ever emphasize them that way round,
and I think that is what the OP was really enquiring about.

Signature

Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133   Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

Einde O'Callaghan - 20 Dec 2008 03:19 GMT
>> I do not think either the Brits or those in the U.S. omit any vowel
>> sound in these words completely. In other words, there are no silent
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> No speaker of British English would ever emphasize them that way round,
> and I think that is what the OP was really enquiring about.

Whatever about standard Received Pronunciation, it is nevertheless the
case that many speakers of English resident in Britain do use this
pronunciation.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Paul - 21 Dec 2008 18:33 GMT
> In <e6a688c2-2fe2-4450-b5b7-629cb83c4...@s9g2000prm.googlegroups.com> Paul <paulmathew...@gmail.com> writes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Email: c...@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
> PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

Agreed. That was a mistake to respond without first having checked
Daniel Jones. What about the view that certain vowels are missing
altogether in these words?
Christopher C. Hunt - 08 Sep 2009 21:51 GMT
On 19 Dec, 07:34, "Charles Lindsey" <c...@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote:
> In <e6a688c2-2fe2-4450-b5b7-629cb83c4...@s9g2000prm.googlegroups.com> Paul
> <paulmathew...@gmail.com> writes:
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> U.K.
> PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

Agreed. That was a mistake to respond without first having checked
Daniel Jones. What about the view that certain vowels are missing
altogether in these words?

"Necessarily" works the same way, doesn't it?  The British tend to make the
first syllable stronger than the third, and most North Americans the other
way around.  The song "It ain't necessarily so", by Americans Ira and George
Gershwin, forces the singer to do the accentuation exactly as most North
Americans do it!
Lazarus Cooke - 23 Dec 2008 01:56 GMT
In article
<c98cf391-8d3f-4241-a298-6427e024abe7@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, ct
<claus.tondering@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am somewhat confused about the proper British pronunciation of words
> like "ordinarily", "temporarily", and "momentarily".
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> --
> Claus

Hi Claus

In Received Pronunciation, the dialect of educated speakers of standard
English, all three adverbs are stressed on the first syllable, with the
others trailing away in emphasis.

There are, of course, lots of 'educated speakers' who speak with a
whole variety of other dialects,  many of them approaching RP, and many
influenced by American and regional useage.

But in RP the pronunciation follows what Fowler called 'recessive
accent', with the stress on the first syllable.

That is the normal pronunciation among those who are comfortable,
habitual users of RP.

L
Einde O'Callaghan - 23 Dec 2008 07:09 GMT
> In article
> <c98cf391-8d3f-4241-a298-6427e024abe7@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, ct
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> That is the normal pronunciation among those who are comfortable,
> habitual users of RP.

However, RP is habitually used only by a minority of the British
population, most speak with a regional accent.

REgards, Einde O'Callaghan
Paul - 29 Dec 2008 16:55 GMT
> > In article
> > <c98cf391-8d3f-4241-a298-6427e024a...@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, ct
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> REgards, Einde O'Callaghan

Right. We're not deciding this issue on a majority-minority basis.
That would serve no purpose. However, I wonder if the accent
'progressively trails' away as the third syllables are slightly more
emphatically stressed than the second.
Einde O'Callaghan - 29 Dec 2008 19:16 GMT
>>> In article
>>> <c98cf391-8d3f-4241-a298-6427e024a...@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, ct
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> 'progressively trails' away as the third syllables are slightly more
> emphatically stressed than the second.

IIRC the original poster wanted to know how people pronounce the words
in Britain, not what the RP (spoken by a small but influential minority
of the people in Britain) is.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Charles Lindsey - 30 Dec 2008 14:24 GMT
>>>> In article
>>>> <c98cf391-8d3f-4241-a298-6427e024a...@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, ct
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>>>> whereas Americans not only pronounce the "a", but have a secondary
>>>>> stress on that letter.......

>>>> In Received Pronunciation, the dialect of educated speakers of standard
>>>> English, all three adverbs are stressed on the first syllable, with the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>>>> But in RP the pronunciation follows what Fowler called 'recessive
>>>> accent', with the stress on the first syllable.

>IIRC the original poster wanted to know how people pronounce the words
>in Britain, not what the RP (spoken by a small but influential minority
>of the people in Britain) is.

I don't think accentuation of syllables differs much according to accent
(it is mostly vowels that change and ususual words/expressions that
arise). So if RP indicates that a particular syllable should be stressed,
I think you would find it the same in most regional accents. RP is pretty
near the centre of gravity of what is actually spoken.

Going back to what the OP asked, it certainly seems to be the case that
the 'a' is not stressed by British speakers, and may even be elided
entirely (at least in the adjectives), whereas it IS stressed by American
speakers.

Signature

Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133   Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

Paul - 30 Dec 2008 19:15 GMT
> >>> In article
> >>> <c98cf391-8d3f-4241-a298-6427e024a...@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, ct
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Alright. However, this small but influential minority IS part of the
people in Britain. Is there a majority (who, supposedly are not as
influential) which represents 'typical' British accent? Lindsey goes
to the extent of saying that RP is "pretty near the centre of gravity
of what is actually spoken. Would you disagree? If so how does one
define typical British accent?
 
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