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Re: AmE: cleaning the car
| Glenn Knickerbocker | 26 Jun 2009 13:27 |
>Not so. Curme, _English Grammar_, 122.A.3 _As a Noun._ "As an adjective >the participle can be used as a noun: the _wounded_ and the _dying_." And isn't it clear that in this example "the dying" means the people who are dying, not the process of dying?
Look in the same reference under "gerund" and you should find examples like "the dying of the light" and "the dyeing of the wool." It may call these forms gerunds, or it may insist that they're verbal nouns that are distinct from gerunds. Either way, they ain't participles.
¬R "Carl Sagan is more educational than J.R.R. Tolkien even though they were both total stoners." K. http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/cosmic.html
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| Eric Walker | 26 Jun 2009 08:43 |
[...]
>>The participle, to become a noun--it is adjectival by definition--takes >>the definite article: "The cleaning was tedious work." > > Huh? That's a gerund. A participle describes its actor (present) or > object (past), not the action: "The cleaning, by virtue of the > solutions they spill on themselves, become the cleaned." Not so. Curme, _English Grammar_, 122.A.3 _As a Noun._ "As an adjective the participle can be used as a noun: the _wounded_ and the _dying_." A more general discussion can be found at 108._Descriptive Adjectives Used as Nouns._ I frankly don't understand the sample sentence above: who are "the cleaning"?
[...]
> As I said, I think you put your finger on it the first time: The > infinitive is needed where "did" is heard to be repeated in ellipsis. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > * The first thing I did was [that I did] clean the car. The first is clear enough, but that second looks wooly. The operative verb in the sentence--by "operative" I mean the one that connects the subject to the predication--is the past of copulative "be"; it is linking one noun phrase, the subject ("The first thing I did") with a second noun phrase ("clean the car"), where "clean" is the simple infinitive.
 Signature Cordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/
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| Glenn Knickerbocker | 26 Jun 2009 05:09 |
>That is simply elliptical for "I cleaned the car." You would not say >"The first thing I did yesterday was cleaned the car." I might, somewhat jocularly. Plenty of people I know would, without any special intention. That's why I said "especially" rather than "exclusively" in answering a question.
>a. "[O]ne of the community service projects we did was cleaning up on a >site that I wound up working on." >b. "[T]he hardest thing we did was cleaning out her room." >d. "[T]the nastiest work I ever did was cleaning tables." All three of these sound normal and correct to me. "Clean" works just as well in b. but sounds entirely wrong to me in the other two. The key in those two, to my ear, is that the cleaning is something done over a period of time, an activity rather than an action.
>The participle, to become a noun--it is adjectival by definition--takes >the definite article: "The cleaning was tedious work." Huh? That's a gerund. A participle describes its actor (present) or object (past), not the action: "The cleaning, by virtue of the solutions they spill on themselves, become the cleaned."
>Is it just arbitrary idiom, like the order of qualifying adjectives? Or >have I missed some elementary rule? As I said, I think you put your finger on it the first time: The infinitive is needed where "did" is heard to be repeated in ellipsis.
* What was the first thing you did? * [I did] Clean the car.
* The first thing I did was [that I did] clean the car.
There's no inferred repetition possible if "did" hasn't been said yet.
¬R >@< >@< >@< >@< >@< http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/emopvere.html "insulting me; that is one of alt.religion.kibology's purposes" --jwgh
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| Eric Walker | 26 Jun 2009 02:20 |
>> The #1 form is clearly wrong. You will hear (and read) both of the >> other forms commonly, but I believe that the precisian will prefer the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to me) and I'd stick with the more recognized form "precisionist," but I > do think you've put your finger on *why* it seems wrong. Webster's new World Dictionary, 2nd College Edition: precisian: a person who is strict and precise in observing rules or customs, esp. of religion . . .
I grant the "esp." use for a Puritan, but reckon the word has a more general use. Nor is it the same as precisionist, "a person who attaches great or too great importance to precision." The sense of excess is distinctly greater in precisionist: a precisian is strictly exacting, while a precisionist is excessively exacting. A shading, granted, but it is of shadings that English is built.
[...]
> Also, I'd say the simple infinitive isn't always heard as such. It's > nonstandard but not that unusual for the past tense to replace it, > especially in answer to a question: > > * What was the first thing you did? > * Cleaned the car. That is simply elliptical for "I cleaned the car." You would not say "The first thing I did yesterday was cleaned the car."
===============
As to the OP's later specimen sentences (here slightly simplified by the eliding of irrelevant words):
a. "[O]ne of the community service projects we did was cleaning up on a site that I wound up working on." [I reckon that "on" should be "of" or just omitted.]
b. "[T]he hardest thing we did was cleaning out her room."
c. "[A]ll he ever did was cleaning cars."
d. "[T]the nastiest work I ever did was cleaning tables."
And for comparison, the (also simplified) original query form was:
e. "The first thing I did was cleaning the car."
I'd say each is at least poor if not outright wrong (though b and d seem less exceptionable than the others), and wants an infinitive in the predicate.
More generally, each of those has the form "[noun phrase] was [noun phrase]," where we are concerned with the correct form of the second noun phrase. As it involves a finite form of the verb "clean", it needs to use either a participle, an infinitive, or a gerund.
The participle, to become a noun--it is adjectival by definition--takes the definite article: "The cleaning was tedious work." No such articles appear, hence none of the constructions involve a participle.
The gerund stands alone: "Cleaning is tedious work." The infinitive can go with or without its particle, depending on the exact context: "To clean one's room is a tedious task"; "Yes, he did clean his room."
Here I must admit I am at a loss. It is abundantly clear to my ear that in the general form cited, the subject phrase urgently wants--requires-- the gerund form, whereas the predicate-complement phrase requires the infinitive form: but I can't adduce the rule. Consider:
"Cleaning the car was the first thing I did."
"The first thing I did was [to] clean the car."
Both are easy and natural in sound. But--
"[To] clean the car was the first thing I did."
"The first thing I did was cleaning the car."
--are each ghastly. (But note that a participle instead of a gerund can work: "The first chore I did was the cleaning of the car.") Not that infinitives can't readily be subjects: "To err is human"; "To triumph was his goal."
Is it just arbitrary idiom, like the order of qualifying adjectives? Or have I missed some elementary rule?
 Signature Cordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/
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| Glenn Knickerbocker | 25 Jun 2009 17:04 |
> The #1 form is clearly wrong. You will hear (and read) both of the other > forms commonly, but I believe that the precisian will prefer the #3 form, > inasmuch as after the auxiliary "do" the infinitive typically appears in > its "simple" (no "to") form. I'm not so sure the wrongness is clear (it sounds only slightly awkward to me) and I'd stick with the more recognized form "precisionist," but I do think you've put your finger on *why* it seems wrong. I wouldn't hesitate to use the gerund in these similar contexts:
* The first thing I did yesterday was the annual cleaning of the car. * Cleaning the car was the first thing I did yesterday. * Of the things I did yesterday, the smartest was cleaning the car. * The first two things I did were laundry and cleaning the car. * The first thing I accomplished yesterday was cleaning the car.
All of these are pretty close to the original in form, but each has some feature that clearly separates "did" from "cleaning" to make it clear that "cleaning" isn't part of a verb phrase.
Also, I'd say the simple infinitive isn't always heard as such. It's nonstandard but not that unusual for the past tense to replace it, especially in answer to a question:
* What was the first thing you did? * Cleaned the car.
¬R
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| Eric Walker | 25 Jun 2009 10:31 |
> In AmE: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Do you feel that the first isn't correct? How about the other two? The #1 form is clearly wrong. You will hear (and read) both of the other forms commonly, but I believe that the precisian will prefer the #3 form, inasmuch as after the auxiliary "do" the infinitive typically appears in its "simple" (no "to") form.
(As a sidebar, the modern infinitive is an evolved form: originally the verbal was the object of the preposition "do".)
 Signature Cordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/
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| Marius Hancu | 25 Jun 2009 10:08 |
Hello:
In AmE:
1. The first thing I did yesterday was cleaning the car. 2. The first thing I did yesterday was to clean the car. 3. The first thing I did yesterday was clean the car.
Do you feel that the first isn't correct? How about the other two?
Thanks. Marius Hancu
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