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Re: what kinds of cats?



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Re: what kinds of cats?

Tony Mountifield22 Apr 2009 16:51
> So I repeat my question. Which usage is correct: "how many breeds of dog
> are there?" or "how many breeds of dogs are there?"? In English English,
> for a start, and preferably with quotations (of either form) from
> well-respected literature.

Well to my ears the former sounds correct.

But in the absence of well- respected literature, I did a Google search
for "kinds of" (including the quotes, to keep it as a phrase).

Surprisingly (to me), in the first several pages of results, countable
nouns were pluralised, almost without exception.

Cheers
Tony
Signature

Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org


Charles Lindsey22 Apr 2009 13:16
>At 15:58:25 on Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>
>wrote in <KIGKDD.IuB@clerew.man.ac.uk>:

>Hi, Charles!

>>I am having an argument with the RFC-Editor.

>Since this relates to an RFC, can we presume that the intention is that
>it should adhere to the rules of US English, rather than to those of
>Commonwealth English?

No. The internet is international, and so is the IETF (and it even holds
meetings outside of N. America just to enhance its image :-( ).

And the fact that the RFC-Editor actually sits looking out over all the
boats in Marina-del-Rey does not of itself mean that US English is to be
preferred. The RFC-Editor is just another publishing house and hence has a
"house style" which is no more nor less stupid than any other publishing
house (and they are notoriously stupid, in general).

So I repeat my question. Which usage is correct: "how many breeds of dog
are there?" or "how many breeds of dogs are there?"? In English English,
for a start, and preferably with quotations (of either form) from
well-respected literature.

Signature

Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131            Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5


Molly Mockford21 Apr 2009 18:50
At 15:58:25 on Tue, 21 Apr 2009, Charles Lindsey <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>
wrote in <KIGKDD.IuB@clerew.man.ac.uk>:

Hi, Charles!

>I am having an argument with the RFC-Editor.

Since this relates to an RFC, can we presume that the intention is that
it should adhere to the rules of US English, rather than to those of
Commonwealth English?

If the intention is to write the RFC in Commonwealth English, then both
Webster and the Chicago Manual of Style are irrelevant;  however, if it
is intended to write it in US English, then this is not the appropriate
newsgroup, and alt.usage.english/alt.english.usage would be better
fitted to assist on the usage of US English.
Signature

Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)


Charles Lindsey21 Apr 2009 15:58
I am having an argument with the RFC-Editor. My co-author had written:

 but some of them may be required in certain types of article.

and she changed it into

  but some of them may be required in certain types of articles.

To justify this, she referred to the Chicago Manual of Style at
 http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/Usage/Usage89.html
where it says:

Q. Several times lately I've written or revised copy to change the word in
the prepositional phrase following "kinds of" or "types of" to the
singular from the plural"from "what kinds of cats"" "three types of
errors" to "what kinds of cat," "three types of error." And several times
a client has treated the resulting phrase like an error. I haven?t found
the answer to this usage question in CMOS. What do you think?

A. Your client is right. According to Webster's, "kinds of" takes a plural
if the relevant noun is countable. (Dictionaries are good for this kind of
question.)

Do we believe this? And do we trust Webster?

Sadly, Fowler seems silent on the issue, but it seems totally wrong to me,
certainly on this side of the pond.

So, can anyone find examples of either usage in well-known literature (and
even better in well-known American literature)?

Signature

Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131            Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5


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